Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 13:34:27 -1000 From: hjb@talkeetna.corp.sun.com (Hans Bauman) Message-Id: <2uahq3$543@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. Subject: Cheap electronic trigger I'm trying to rig up a reliable aerial photo setup. I've broken into my point-and-shoot with a soldering iron and been able to make my camera take photos when a switch is closed. This works great when my peter lynn tri-d or delta is a few hundred feet up and I run a second trigger string up to the kite to take the photo, but I would like to be able to trigger photos electronically without spending a fortune. I suppose I could tear apart a radio shack remote-control car, but that would only have tops 100 feet range. Any ideas on a transmitter-receiver combo that is light and relatively cheap? When you have a 1000' trigger line for the camera, it induces lots of swing - not to mention that there ends up being so much stretch in the line that you don't know when the photo is actually being fired. Ideas? Comments? Hans Bauman hjb@talkeetna.corp.sun.COM = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 19:37:03 -1000 From: kyteman@aol.com (Kyteman) Message-Id: <2ub71v$8v6@search01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger In article <2uahq3$543@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>, hjb@talkeetna.Corp.Sun.COM (Hans Bauman) writes: << Any ideas on a transmitter-receiver combo that is light and relatively cheap? >> Those with more of an electronic orientation will have more inventive ideas, but going with a conventional one or two channel radio and servo is pretty cheap if you buy your gear from Tower Hobbies, e.g. Challenger 250 with two servos for $43.99 in the current sale catalog. Orders only 800 637-4989. Order assistance 800 637-6050. I don't work for Tower Hobbies, and have no interest in their business, but I've bought their stuff for two of my aerial camera rigs. chin UP brooks leffler kyteman@aol.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 07:50:25 -1000 From: washpenn!swider@netop3.harvard.edu (Rob Swider) Message-Id: <106@washpenn.UUCP> Organization: Washington Penn Plastic, Washington, PA Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger In article <2ub71v$8v6@search01.news.aol.com>, kyteman@aol.com (Kyteman) writes: > In article <2uahq3$543@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>, > hjb@talkeetna.Corp.Sun.COM (Hans Bauman) writes: > > << Any ideas on a transmitter-receiver combo that is light and > relatively cheap? >> > > servo is pretty cheap if you buy your gear from Tower Hobbies, e.g. > Challenger 250 with two servos for $43.99 in the current sale > catalog. Orders only 800 637-4989. Order assistance 800 637-6050. A couple of notes on the Challenger radios. These are designed for use in R/C cars and don't have much of a distance range, explaining the low price. Also, being car radios, the frequencies they are available on are for surface use only by FCC law. I'm not saying they won't work, but probably aren't the best choice. I would suggest shopping the R/C swap meets for radios on the 27Mhz band. I've been able to pick-up complete 3-channel sets for about $30 because nobody in the R/C hobby wants this stuff anymore. Everyone started dumping their radios when CB starting causing problems. Now, with CB radio use falling they are useful radios once more. Rob Swider washpenn!swider@uunet.uu.net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 13:40:35 -1000 From: kevin@hawaii.edu (Kevin Y Mayeshiro) Message-Id: Organization: University of Hawaii Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger Rob Swider (swider@washpenn.UUCP) wrote: : A couple of notes on the Challenger radios. These are designed for use in : R/C cars and don't have much of a distance range, explaining the low price. : Also, being car radios, the frequencies they are available on are for surface : use only by FCC law. I'm not saying they won't work, but probably aren't : the best choice. Don't know if it's true or not, but I once heard that there is a $1,000 fine if you are caught using a surface rig in an r/c airplane. Don't know about using them with kites. You might want to check with the local FCC office before investing in one. - Kevin -- \ Kevin Mayeshiro : Go fly a kite. o --|\ University of Hawaii Computing Center : Really, /== ---|/ Internet: kevin@Hawaii.Edu : It's FUN! \ / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 08:13:03 -1000 From: kyteman@aol.com (Kyteman) Message-Id: <2uf7nf$bql@search01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger Right you are: the Challenger I quoted is indeed for land use only. Cheapest HiTec radio for air is the Ranger/2, Tower stock #TE3267, sale priced at $51.99. About the matter of land vs air use of radios: the first one I bought, the hobby shop **advised** using land frequencies for kites so as not to clutter up the airwaves for planes! When I bought my last rig from Tower, though, they strongly disagreed. Makes sense to me to use aerial frequencies for kites. chin UP brooks leffler kyteman@aol.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 02:12:25 -1000 From: zottom@aerodesign.meche.rpi.edu (Mark Zotto) Message-Id: <2uh6v9$9sm@usenet.rpi.edu> Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY. Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger In article <2uf7nf$bql@search01.news.aol.com>, kyteman@aol.com (Kyteman) writes: |> About the matter of land vs air use of radios: the first one I |> bought, the hobby shop **advised** using land frequencies for kites |> so as not to clutter up the airwaves for planes! |> |> When I bought my last rig from Tower, though, they strongly |> disagreed. Makes sense to me to use aerial frequencies for kites. |> |> chin UP |> brooks leffler |> kyteman@aol.com I use aircraft frequencies for mine. This is primarily because the radios I already have are on these frequencies. However, I've always figured that using land frequencies was a better idea. If I'm going to interfere with somebody else, I'd much rather mess up a car than an airplane. Also, if the radio is just being used to trigger a camera or other instruments, interference with its operation is not as critical. Extra pictures get taken or others missed, but nothing else gets lost or falls on anybody. I've been away from planes for a while and I can't remember what the official position of the FCC and AMA might be on these matters. -Steve Hill (hills@rpi.edu) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 02:40:51 -1000 From: washpenn!swider@netop3.harvard.edu (Rob Swider) Message-Id: <108@washpenn.UUCP> Organization: Washington Penn Plastic, Washington, PA Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger > kyteman@aol.com (Kyteman) writes: > About the matter of land vs air use of radios: the first one I > bought, the hobby shop **advised** using land frequencies for kites > so as not to clutter up the airwaves for planes! I'd have to agree with your hobby shop, it does make more sense, but I wonder how the FCC would view it... Anybody? Rob Swider washpenn!swider@uunet.uu.net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 4 Sep 1994 17:43:05 -1000 From: brad2dbone@aol.com (Brad2dbone) Message-Id: <34e449$fsl@search01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger In article <108@washpenn.UUCP>, swider@washpenn.UUCP (Rob Swider) writes: << Freq. Air vs. Land >> Might just throw my two cents in here too. I would have to agree that I'd rather have somebody messing with a land based freq. rather than an air. IF their is a noticeable difference in range, the car on the ground isn't going to get a hit from a rampant kite flyer across the next grassy knoll. Since a kiter with camera set up can lurk almost anywhere, a R/C plane fanatic should quake in their flight line at the mere thought that their $$$$$ plane could fly into a crowd or tree-line. Still getting back to the origin of this thread . . . how do you do it? I just started flying my little Cheetah by Wind Toys today. I had a blast, but the thought of aerial photography kind of intrigued me. What kite? How to set a trigger? What camera to use? Any clues? Thanks in advance. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:53:25 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger Brad2dbone (brad2dbone@aol.com) wrote: : In article <108@washpenn.UUCP>, swider@washpenn.UUCP (Rob Swider) writes: : << Freq. Air vs. Land >> : Might just throw my two cents in here too. I would have to agree that I'd : rather have somebody messing with a land based freq. rather than an air. : IF their is a noticeable difference in range, the car on the ground isn't : going to get a hit from a rampant kite flyer across the next grassy knoll. : Since a kiter with camera set up can lurk almost anywhere, a R/C plane : fanatic should quake in their flight line at the mere thought that their : $$$$$ plane could fly into a crowd or tree-line. When you buy r/c equipment, if you explain the intended use (kite aerial photography) to the dealer, the dealer will (should) sell you an aircraft frequency (my experience based on two purchases, two different shops). While I follow your reasoning, I suspect r/c aircraft pilots have a lot more to worry about than the occasional kite aerial photographer when it comes to interference. The sailplane pilots congregate in one area at my local park, and if I'm going to use r/c, I check with them first to see if anyone's using the same frequency. I also turn the receiver on first to see if there's anyone/thing on the same frequency in the area. >Still getting back to the origin of this thread . . . how do you do it? I >just started flying my little Cheetah by Wind Toys today. I had a blast, >but the thought of aerial photography kind of intrigued me. What kite? >How to set a trigger? What camera to use? Any clues? The first kite aerial photography was taken by Arthur Batut, a Frenchman, in 1888. People have devised all sorts of ingenious ways to remotely take pictures ... some of the more commonly used methods are listed below (included article). Any kite capable of lifting the weight in the current wind conditions will do. Stable flight is nice ;-). Single-line kites are generally used, but multi-line kites can of course lift cameras, too. Cameras used range from disposable to SLRs (and I've even seen one medium-format camera in a rig, though I don't know if it has ever been lifted). Comes down to weight, automation, cost, risk, quality of picture. Here are a couple of articles posted earlier this summer (some headers removed). ********begin included articles******* >From netcom.com!rock Mon Aug 1 21:13:18 1994 Xref: netcom.com rec.kites:8772 rec.photo.misc:101 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Subject: Re: how to trigger a kite-born camera ? (Re: pictures from a kite) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 01:11:07 GMT :[stuff deleted from original posting] First, there have been several threads on rec.kites in the past week about kite aerial photography. Rather than repeat what's just been said, I'll suggest you look for them, and if your site keeps articles for only a few days, email me and I'll send them to you. Second, the rec.kites archive has two collections of articles (ftp.hawaii.edu via anonymous ftp, path is pub/rec/kites/tips, and the files are 'aerial.photography' and 'kite.aerial.photography'). Also available from the archive are 4 FAQs -- a weekly pointer to the FAQs and archives describes the FAQs (pub/rec/kite/faq). Books on kite aerial photography: see the General FAQ for Mark Cottrell's book 'Kite Aerial Photography' and Ron Moulton's more recent 'Kites' which has a good chapter. Both books are published in the UK, and are also available from KiteLines Bookstore (access in General FAQ). Another book, especially interesting for its biography of Arthur Batut, the originator of kite aerial photography, is "Labruguiere, Birthplace of kite aerophotography -- Arthur Batut 1846-1918" by Danielle Autha, Serge Negre, Geoffroy de Beauffort, and Raoul Fosset; published by Midi France Communication, 1988. ISBN 2-87701-007-4. Text is in both English and French. Also has chapters on modern kite aerial photography. KAPWA, Kite Aerial Photography Worldwide Association, transformed itself into a foundation at the end of 1993 and no longer publishes a quarterly newsletter. Back issues of this very informative newsletter may be available. Contact in General FAQ. The American Kiteflyers Association is publishing a kite aerial photography newsletter, The Aerial Eye; first issue due out in August. Newsletter available to members only. Address for AKA in General FAQ, or write Brooks Leffler, AKA Executive Director & Kite Aerial Photographer, at kyteman@aol.com. Some common methods for shutter release: 1. Dethermalizing timer with plunger/arm A timer has been used with simple systems designed for several kite aerial photography workshops; disposable cameras were used for the workshops but the system will work with other cameras. Advantages: Fairly simple for first rig, lightweight. Disadvantages: Have to bring camera down after every picture. Not much control over when picture is taken. July 1993 issue of the AKA's newsletter 'Kiting' included plans by Brooks Leffler for this type of system. 2. Intervalometer (internal to camera) I know of several cameras with intervalometers (and would like to hear about others): Rollei Prego AF and a Samsung (point-and-shoot cameras; specs are identical except for lenses), and a store label, Black, in the upper Midwest of the U.S. The intervalometer on these cameras can be set to take a picture every minute, or every 10 minutes, or every 30 minutes. I'd like every 2.5 or 5 minutes ;-) Advantage: Don't have to bring camera down after each shot. No additional mechanism required for shutter release. Disadvantages: Set on every minute, it can use up quite a bit of film, but every 10 minutes is often too great an interval. No control over when picture is taken. 3. Radio control Usually used with a system that also rotates camera 360 degrees and tilts 180 degrees. Advantages: Control ;-) Disadvantages: Cost. Weight. Making rig. 4. Camera timer Some cameras have double timers, for up to 10 seconds, and with practice you can get a camera up and stabilized in time to take a nice photo of a group of people, etc. ** The issue of control may not seem too important if pictures are panoramic landscapes, but in turbulent conditions it's preferable to click a photo in a brief lull. Control is also important for action shots. This is a bit brief, but much of what the newly-interested might like to know is in the resources listed above. Questions gladly answered. And, a couple of personal additions. Weight -- of rig, kite, and line -- is very important. Safety: kite and line may behave differently with a weight hanging on the kite line (most rigs are attached to the kite line some distance below the kite). Losing/dropping a camera would make me sad but my personal nightmare is of my camera injuring a person. No photo is worth that. (So yes, I take a risk in lifting the camera, as an accident may happen over which I have no control ....) Learning to accurately aim the camera, to get a 'photography' and not a 'snapshot,' is a challenge, to see in your mind's eye what the camera sees. Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 18:45:49 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services Subject: Re: Forwarded from Joost Romeu :[intro deleted] : What do you recommend? First I'll quote Craig Wilson of Madison, Wisconsin, whose kite aerial photography efforts are inspiring: "Putting a load on a kite is like adding a sidecar to a motorcyle. Everything changes." (Kiting, July 1993) As you have seen already, there are a number of kites which may work for you, and at some point it comes down to personal preferences. The parafoil and flowform kites, both sparless, ram-air kites, are known as lifters. My *personal* preference is to use sparred kites because it is difficult, sometimes impossible, to refill a collapsed parafoil or flowform in mid-air. A sparred kite maintains its shape; if the wind drops below the point where the kite maintains its lift, you may be able to pull the line in fast enough to bring the camera and kite down under control. Flowforms generally handle turbulent conditions better than parafoils. I second Mark de Roussier's suggestion of a large delta. It will handle a good wind range, is generally stable (a tube tail will help with overflying tendencies), and is easy to make. Having a couple sets of spars (light wind, medium wind) might be helpful. Bundling all the spars of kite together gives you a strong package ... I don't think transport will be difficult, unless you are going cross- country through thick low-growing vegetation, in which case you'll want to cut all the spars into short lengths. (I've done day hikes with kites, but not backpacking.) Weight of kite, kite line, camera and supporting framework are all important. You want a kite light enough to launch in "minimum breeze" but you'll also want the kite to handle the probably stronger winds at higher altitudes (above launch site). Depending on how you feel about crashing a camera, you'll be making choices between adding reinforcements to the kite and trying to shave ounces so the wind range of the kite will be extended. Using lighter materials, like fiberglass or graphite spars, will extend the wind range. Kevlar line is considerably lighter than dacron, good for both the weight the backpacker carries and the kite lifts. [stuff deleted] If you're wondering about spars (fiberglass rods and tubes, graphite, dowels), relative weights, etc., Into the Wind has a useful chart in its mail order catalog. 1-800-541-0314. The American Kiteflyer's Association is publishing a newsletter on kite aerial photography with a first issue due real soon now. The newsletter is free to members. Call 1-800-AKA-2550 or send email to kyteman@aol.com (Brooks Leffler, executive director of AKA and kite aerial photographer). Membership has a number of other benefits, including the bimonthly newsletter _Kiting_; 10 0iscount at member merchants; liability insurance. [more stuff deleted] There are several kite aerial photographers active on rec.kites .... I'm looking forward to hearing about your adventures. *****end included articles***** Anne -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | rec.kites FAQs available from * * rock@netcom.com | ftp.hawaii.edu in pub/rec/kites/faq * * Berkeley, CA | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 15:38:12 -1000 From: mark@murder.demon.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Message-Id: <779099892snx@murder.demon.co.uk> Organization: damage Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger In article rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) writes: > Brad2dbone (brad2dbone@aol.com) wrote: > : In article <108@washpenn.UUCP>, swider@washpenn.UUCP (Rob Swider) writes: > > : << Freq. Air vs. Land >> > > : Might just throw my two cents in here too. I would have to agree that I'd > : rather have somebody messing with a land based freq. rather than an air. > : IF their is a noticeable difference in range, the car on the ground isn't > : going to get a hit from a rampant kite flyer across the next grassy knoll. > : Since a kiter with camera set up can lurk almost anywhere, a R/C plane > : fanatic should quake in their flight line at the mere thought that their > : $$$$$ plane could fly into a crowd or tree-line. > > When you buy r/c equipment, if you explain the intended use (kite aerial > photography) to the dealer, the dealer will (should) sell you an aircraft > frequency (my experience based on two purchases, two different shops). > > While I follow your reasoning, I suspect r/c aircraft pilots have a lot > more to worry about than the occasional kite aerial photographer when > it comes to interference. > > The sailplane pilots congregate in one area at my local park, and if I'm > going to use r/c, I check with them first to see if anyone's using the > same frequency. I also turn the receiver on first to see if there's > anyone/thing on the same frequency in the area. > [ loads of stuff deleted... ] I don't know much about r/c, but on the ( small ) number of occasions I've used r/c gear for this purpose I've tried to pick as obscure a frequency as possible - I've got a small number of crystals corresponding to what I'm told are less common frequencies, on the basis that if I talk to the competition we should be able to find something that works reasonably for everyone. And as for kite photographers lurking, with a large kite plus camera rig several hundred feet in the air I would have thought it difficult to be more obvious :). -- Mark de Roussier ************************************ A nice man is a man of nasty ideas. Jonathon Swift. ************************************ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 20:15:22 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services Subject: Re: Cheap electronic trigger Mark de Roussier (mark@murder.demon.co.uk) wrote: : And as for kite photographers lurking, with a large kite plus camera rig : several hundred feet in the air I would have thought it difficult to be more : obvious :). Well, if you're just over the hill east from the sailplane pilots and they are all facing west, watching their planes..... but I think part of it is just knowing that kite aerial photography exists. Most people, including some kite flyers, aren't aware of the possibility, which is why I sometimes called it "kite fishing" because I'll watch people look at the object hanging from the kite line and then see which ones follow the kite line down to me and come over to talk ... kite fishing for people. Had an interesting session at the beach yesterday ... Mr Rock and I put the camera up over a sand castle contest, and there are a lot of non-kite flyers who are now aware of kite aerial photography ;-) Aerial photos of someone's interpretation in sand of hamburger and bun and french fries: is it art (the photo and/or the sand sculpture)? Anne -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | * * rock@netcom.com | * * Berkeley, CA | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =