Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 06:28:57 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jul19.162857.12301@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Competition at the AKA Grand Nationals There are two sides to this discussion: 1. Those who feel that the AKA National Convention shouldn't have so much competition. The National Convention is a time to make/meet friends, talk kites, etc. 2. Those who feel that the AKA Grand Nationals should be mostly about competition. The AKA as the governing body of stunt kite flying in the USA should try to meet the desires of the competitors. Other things are necessary, but the competition is the most important aspect. Of course, there are people between the opposite points. There are quite a few folks out in netland (and elsewhere) who believe in 2, and feel cheated that the AKA Board of Directors decided to set up the convention with only one day of stunt kite competition. I believe that the board made the right decision at the time. I also believe that the board earnestly tried to get input from competitors, but that, for the most part, flyers just ignore the AKA and the board. After this years AKA convention, the whole issue of competition will be reviewed again. A decision will be made about competition for next year. I would like to start a discussion about how the competition should be done next year. Please don't discuss the conference ranking system, I'll start another note for it after this one... So, here are the questions: 1. Should the AKA Grand Nationals be an Invitational (only those who are asked can compete) or should it be an Open (anyone can compete) event? I believe that the AKA Grand Nationals in Hawaii were the last year that the competition was Open. Since then you could only compete if you qualified. 2. What classes should there be? Currently, the AKA recognizes Novice, Intermediate, Experienced, and Masters level flyers. Additionally, some events are open for any competitor. In the recent past Experienced and Masters level classes flew. This year, all levels will be flying. 3. How many competitors should be allowed to compete? In the recent past, everyone who qualified was invited, and everyone who qualified and entered could fly. It wasn't unusual for three or four heats before the finals. This year there is a cap of approximately 15 per event. 4. How does the AKA staff this event? Your plan for staffing should ensure that no volunteer is overworked, and that qualified judges should be judging. One of the primary reasons that competition was cut to a single day was that it has been very difficult to get adequate staff to run the event in the past. Usually what happened was that a small number of people did all of the work. Volunteers from the flyers were few. 5. Should the AKA Grand Nationals be separate from the AKA convention? The convention has the annual meeting, the auction, a banquet for awards, workshops and seminars, etc. The Grand Nationals took place at the same place and the same time. 6. What would be a reasonable fee for competing in the AKA Grand Nationals. Let's try to be rational and avoid ad hominem attacks. If you have an opinion, be sure to let it be known. I will summarize the discussion and present it at the next AKA board meeting if it makes sense to do so. Anyone can present something to the board as well, so if you believe that I will mis-represent what goes on here, feel free to make your feelings known. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 07:26:55 -1000 From: WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) Message-Id: Organization: Novell, Inc Subject: Re: Competition at the AKA Grand Nationals > 1. Should the AKA Grand Nationals be an Invitational (only those who > are asked can compete) or should it be an Open (anyone can > compete) event? To me it kind of depends on what the function of the Grand Nationals is. I have never attended one, so I assume that it is a place to judge the best of the best for national ranking. If so, in my opinion it should be limited to flyers who have reached the top positions in previous regional events. > 3. How many competitors should be allowed to compete? > > In the recent past, everyone who qualified was invited, and > everyone who qualified and entered could fly. It wasn't unusual > for three or four heats before the finals. This year there is a > cap of approximately 15 per event. I think that if the only people that were competing were those who had previously earned a spot in a regional competition, this would be self limiting. > 4. How does the AKA staff this event? > > Your plan for staffing should ensure that no volunteer is > overworked, and that qualified judges should be judging. My vote would be to require each flyer to work a shift. You receive the benefits of having those people there to staff while you fly; you can do the same for others while they fly. > 6. What would be a reasonable fee for competing in the AKA Grand > Nationals. Just pulling a number out of the air, I would assume it would be from 10 - 15 bucks... Wes wvoss@novell.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: These are just my opinions, and no one else's; no one else wants them; especially my employer! ___________________________________________________________ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 08:43:26 -1000 From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA Subject: Re: Competition at the AKA Grand Nationals Just a note: A while ago, I started a thread that (also) included the issue of the AKA's focus on sport kites vs. its focus on single-line kites. If you look in the archives, you'll find that I got to the point of questioning the AKA's very existence in the sport kite world, and introduced the idea of creating another non-profit org. (or even a for-profit org.) that would deal specifically with sport kites and competition... In article <1993Jul19.162857.12301@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: > >There are two sides to this discussion: > > 1. Those who feel that the AKA National Convention shouldn't have so > much competition. The National Convention is a time to make/meet > friends, talk kites, etc. > > 2. Those who feel that the AKA Grand Nationals should be mostly > about competition. The AKA as the governing body of stunt kite > flying in the USA should try to meet the desires of the > competitors. Other things are necessary, but the competition is > the most important aspect. > >Of course, there are people between the opposite points. There are >quite a few folks out in netland (and elsewhere) who believe in 2, and >feel cheated that the AKA Board of Directors decided to set up the >convention with only one day of stunt kite competition. > >I believe that the board made the right decision at the time. I also >believe that the board earnestly tried to get input from competitors, >but that, for the most part, flyers just ignore the AKA and the board. While at the competition in Long Beach, WA, I got a chance to talk to Dave Gomberg at length about many issues, this one in particular. Although I didn't get a chance to completely air my complete viewpoint, I managed to get a fairly decent insight as to how the Decision was made. This is not to say that I now know what the exact arguments were, or what some of the concerns of both sides of the issue are, but I have a (vague) idea of what went on that produced the decision... I think Marty hit the nail on the head here: from what I could tell, there are many different factions within the AKA, and, to a large extent, the voice of flyers is not as strong as the AKA's constituency should warrant. Now my opinion as to why this is happening. One thing that Dave Gomberg mentioned to me that I found pretty suprising was the lack of information the AKA had about its members. Basically, when you join the AKA, you check a box, "My interest in kites is: a) single-line, b) sport kites, c) both". Dave mentioned that most people checked both. Come to think of it, _I_ probably checked BOTH! This is all the AKA knows about its constituency. Now, a little background about why the above information is almost useless. As I said, _I_ was probably one of many of AKA joinees that checked "Both" under the "My interest is..." column. Let's talk about numbers. I own ONE single-line kite. It has a retail value of about $50. Well, without going into a lot of detail, sitting in my car right now are kites I normally fly all the time (i.e. not my whole collection)--retail value: $1600 (kites alone). I have been flying for about two years now, and I've spent countless THOUSANDS of hours behind the lines of one of many sport kites. Although I've flown and appreciate single-line kites of all kinds, the ratio of hours I've spent on each concern is easily a thousand to one--in favor of sport kites. Although I might be an extreme example--particularly when it comes to the money aspect--I simply can't imagine that I'm that atypical. Every weekend I'll go to one of several flying fields here in the Bay Area. What I'll see is several dozen sport kites in the sky, and a few single-liners. Outside of unit numbers, you can look at retail value: how many people on these fields do you suppose went out and spent $150 on a single-line kite? Close to none. The sport kites I see, however, are a different story... When somebody spends such a large amount of money on some kind of toy (viz. a bicycle, volleyball net, rollerblades, etc.), there is a good chance that they will become very interested in the particular sport (this is called, "buying in" in marketing terms). Also, since sport kites can be such an exciting and involving activity (gets real exciting here in the 25MPH+ Bay Area :-)), a comparitively large percentage of these people will get "hard core" into this sport. This kind of 'mass appeal' cannot be applied to single-line kites. I think that the AKA should more carefully examine its constituency, and also examine its _potential_ constituency and market itself accordingly. I think comparing the appeal of single-line kites to sport kites is like comparing oil painting to water skiing. There's just no comparison. If you judge simply by the amount of advertising copy in a magazine like _American Kite_, sport kites would seem like practically the only things happening. ****** Dave Gomberg needs to "balance" between the concerns of single-line advocates and sport kites flyers. He also needs to keep the "non-profit" charter of the AKA in mind (viz. the AKA has no _direct_ interest in manufacturers making lots of money). As I've said before, I think that Dave and AKA, etc. are doing a fine job given that parameters they are working under. Unfortunately, I don't think that these parameters are a very nice thing to do to somebody... ****** > >After this years AKA convention, the whole issue of competition will >be reviewed again. A decision will be made about competition for next >year. I would like to start a discussion about how the competition >should be done next year. Please don't discuss the conference ranking >system, I'll start another note for it after this one... > >So, here are the questions: > > 1. Should the AKA Grand Nationals be an Invitational (only those who > are asked can compete) or should it be an Open (anyone can > compete) event? > > I believe that the AKA Grand Nationals in Hawaii were the last > year that the competition was Open. Since then you could only > compete if you qualified. I think that the "best of the best" idea is a good one--lest the Grand Nationals have way too many competitors. One idea I would have is this: figure out how much time the GN has for competitions, thereby derive how many competitors in each event you can run, and then simply admit the top N competitors ("points"-wise). No-shows could allow people further down in the ranking to be allowed to compete... Just a thought. > > 2. What classes should there be? > > Currently, the AKA recognizes Novice, Intermediate, Experienced, > and Masters level flyers. Additionally, some events are open for > any competitor. In the recent past Experienced and Masters level > classes flew. This year, all levels will be flying. I think that the Grand Nationals should be a place for the most serious flyers to fly. I don't think that the Grand Nationals is a place for novice/intermediate flyers to fly--the AKA should leave that to the local competitions (which makes way more sense, I think). Personally, I'd like to see the event be Master's class only (mabey I could be convinced that Experienced Team events should be run also...). > > 3. How many competitors should be allowed to compete? > > In the recent past, everyone who qualified was invited, and > everyone who qualified and entered could fly. It wasn't unusual > for three or four heats before the finals. This year there is a > cap of approximately 15 per event. See above comment. Figure out how much time you have and work backwards. > > 4. How does the AKA staff this event? > > Your plan for staffing should ensure that no volunteer is > overworked, and that qualified judges should be judging. > > One of the primary reasons that competition was cut to a single > day was that it has been very difficult to get adequate staff to > run the event in the past. Usually what happened was that a small > number of people did all of the work. Volunteers from the flyers > were few. I've talked a little about how to more get volunteers before--which had to do with putting a value--perhaps even a dollar value--on volunteer work. Dave Gomberg (I think it was Dave) brought up the idea of getting large sponors (viz. Coca Cola) to help pay for the event. I don't personally know all the answers off hand, but I think people need to be realistic with their expectations and open to new solutions... > > 5. Should the AKA Grand Nationals be separate from the AKA > convention? > > The convention has the annual meeting, the auction, a banquet for > awards, workshops and seminars, etc. The Grand Nationals took > place at the same place and the same time. YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES! I think that THIS will solve a lot of the problems we've talked about here... > > 6. What would be a reasonable fee for competing in the AKA Grand > Nationals. I keep referring to that article I wrote a while ago about funding a competition, fees, volunteers, etc. Does anybody know where that article might be (I'm not adept enough net-wise to know where to find this). In essence, I said that people should have to pay for what they get. What is a "reasonable fee" for an orange? The answer is, whatever it happens to cost. I think that this question is not a correct one. The correct question is, "how elaborate to we want to make the GN, how much money can we get from other sources, what is left for competitors to pay?". ****** I support the AKA, and I wish the best for them. I'm still not convinced that the AKA can adequately support the interests of both single-line advocates and sport kite flyers--by definition. Somebody very clever will be needed to figure this all out, and then show how it CAN be done... -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com "Hokey weapons and worn out legends are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." -- Hans Solo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 06:01:48 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jul20.160148.26818@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: Competition at the AKA Grand Nationals In article , steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: >In article <1993Jul19.162857.12301@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: >> 5. Should the AKA Grand Nationals be separate from the AKA >> convention? >> >> The convention has the annual meeting, the auction, a banquet for >> awards, workshops and seminars, etc. The Grand Nationals took >> place at the same place and the same time. > >YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES! I think that THIS will solve a lot of the problems >we've talked about here... One problem about making the AKA Grand Nationals separate is finding a site for it, and doing the planning and all of that. It would be most convenient if the site could change each year to share the travel burden. Possibly the Competition and the Convention could overlap slightly, the Convention running from Wednesday to Saturday, and the Competition running from Saturday to Sunday or possibly Monday. Those who were interested in both could stay an extra day or two. How does that sound? Another problem is making the Grand Nationals important. When Dan Prentice established the "All American Championships", he downgraded the AKA Grand Nationals to the status of just another event for American Kite Circuit points. Any ideas of restoring and/or boosting the prestige of this event? -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 08:21:26 -1000 From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA Subject: Re: Competition at the AKA Grand Nationals In article <1993Jul20.154732.26628@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: > >In article , WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) writes: >>> 4. How does the AKA staff this event? >>> >>> Your plan for staffing should ensure that no volunteer is >>> overworked, and that qualified judges should be judging. >> >>My vote would be to require each flyer to work a shift. You receive the >>benefits of having those people there to staff while you fly; you can do the >>same for others while they fly. > >To competitors out there. Do you think this would work? Or would it >turn people away from the competition because they couldn't/wouldn't >work. Of course this would only be done within a set of guidelines, >similar to those that Darrin Skinner mentioned a while back. The problem is that each competitor out there is different, and has a diferent set of wants/needs as far as working the event goes. This is to say that you have: 1. People of modest means, individually flying thier own kite, worried about the costs of entry fees, etc. 2. People that are sponsored flyers, some of which have entry fees paid, some even other expenses. 3. People that have larger expendible incomes, who don't mind higher entry fees, etc. As a cross-section, you also have: 1. People that find a lot of fun in working an event, and will do so without any kind of encouragement, and have lots of time to spare. 2. People that like working the event, but have lots of other work to do at the event such as practising, preparing equipment, etc. 3. People that don't like working the event, for whatever reason. ****** One suggestion I brought forth here before is the idea of offering discounts on entry fees to competitors that also help with the event. This way, people would not be forced into doing something that they don't want to/can't do. However, I think that this system would encourage many more "volunteers" overall. I'm sure you could get many people to help with even very small incentives... Also, I think that this system would probably open the event up to many folks out there that have trouble getting past the entry fee (this year's Berkeley Nationals is close to $100--ouch!). The only drawback to this idea is it increases the amount of administration involved... -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com "Hokey weapons and worn out legends are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." -- Hans Solo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 07:52:24 -1000 From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA Subject: Re: Competition at the AKA Grand Nationals In article <1993Jul20.160148.26818@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: > >In article , steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: >>In article <1993Jul19.162857.12301@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: >>> 5. Should the AKA Grand Nationals be separate from the AKA >>> convention? >>> >>> The convention has the annual meeting, the auction, a banquet for >>> awards, workshops and seminars, etc. The Grand Nationals took >>> place at the same place and the same time. >> >>YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES! I think that THIS will solve a lot of the problems >>we've talked about here... > >One problem about making the AKA Grand Nationals separate is finding a >site for it, and doing the planning and all of that. It would be most >convenient if the site could change each year to share the travel >burden. > >Possibly the Competition and the Convention could overlap slightly, >the Convention running from Wednesday to Saturday, and the Competition >running from Saturday to Sunday or possibly Monday. Those who were >interested in both could stay an extra day or two. How does that >sound? That sounds pretty good: people like myself that are only competitors would simply fly in for the (perhaps long) weekend... AKA Conventioners would stay the whole time, or leave when the the competitions started... This sounds pretty viable.. > >Another problem is making the Grand Nationals important. When Dan >Prentice established the "All American Championships", he downgraded >the AKA Grand Nationals to the status of just another event for >American Kite Circuit points. Any ideas of restoring and/or boosting >the prestige of this event? I think the invitational nature of this event gives it prestige. You get points throughout the season...so you can get into the GN... The GN is generally the LAST event of the season (or close to it...). Actually, I didn't know that the GN even had Circuit Points associated with it... I look at the GN as the "Super Bowl" of flying--points don't matter once you GET to the Super Bowl... -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com "Hokey weapons and worn out legends are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." -- Hans Solo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 05:47:32 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Jul20.154732.26628@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: Competition at the AKA Grand Nationals In article , WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) writes: >> 4. How does the AKA staff this event? >> >> Your plan for staffing should ensure that no volunteer is >> overworked, and that qualified judges should be judging. > >My vote would be to require each flyer to work a shift. You receive the >benefits of having those people there to staff while you fly; you can do the >same for others while they fly. To competitors out there. Do you think this would work? Or would it turn people away from the competition because they couldn't/wouldn't work. Of course this would only be done within a set of guidelines, similar to those that Darrin Skinner mentioned a while back. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 22:08:10 -1000 From: gaffer@plx.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: <1993Jul20.080810.1581@plx.com> Organization: PLEXUS Software, a division of REI Subject: Re: Competition at the AKA Grand Nationals steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) writes: >I own ONE >single-line kite. It has a retail value of about $50. Well, without going >into a lot of detail, sitting in my car right now are kites I normally fly >all the time (i.e. not my whole collection)--retail value: $1600 (kites >alone). I have been flying for about two years now, and I've spent countless >THOUSANDS of hours behind the lines of one of many sport kites. Although >I've flown and appreciate single-line kites of all kinds, the ratio of >hours I've spent on each concern is easily a thousand to one--in favor of >sport kites. I'm coming from a similar angle to you - I've got even more 2/4 line kit in my car and one single-line - Natalie's legs. Hoever, I expect that as I mature in my kite flying (this is only my second season), the balance will shift towards single. I am becoming aware that stunt kiting is the young upstart in kite flying. There is so much that I want to learn about working with the wind. I want to get involved in the action of individual and team rokkaku, I want to learn the touch to fly indian fighters, I want to work with the power of big parafoils. I want to explore the wonder of building soft flying sculptures. I want to play with bernoulli devices and mess around with playsails and arches. I want to learn more about building things with realistic movement (running legs, swimming octopi, swimming sharks, crawling centipedes). I want to learn from the history of multi-celled kites and Cody kites. I feel that I may soon look back and recognise that stunt and power kiting was merely an avenue that lead me into the world of single-line. Andrew -- Work: gaffer@plx.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =