Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 15:53:52 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3qto3g$65e@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: False Advertising? Subject: False Advertising? What is a competitior to do? In this kiting age of "Qualifying" to compete at the AKA's annual convention kite events all over the US are submitting sanctioning requests to the AKA. Or are they? It seems to me that on more than one occassion I have had the benefit of attending events which sent out flyers and registration forms stating that they were an AKA sanctioned event. Only to find out later that they had not even submitted the requests to the AKA. What a disappointment. To travel all that way, pay for ground transportation, hotel costs and event fees. Boy was I ticked. This is a question for discussion. In a case where an event advertises that it is sanctioned and inadvertantely not sanctioned what liability should be placed on the event organizer? Especially when it is of utmost importance to the competitor (sponsored or not) to compete at an event which may be the points needed to qualify. Open for discussion... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 03:14:42 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (Stephen P. Cseplo) Message-Id: <3qv002$nb1@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: False Advertising? In article <3qto3g$65e@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, Frank Kenisky wrote: >What is a competitior to do? Grin and bear it! '-) Honestly. >It seems to me that on more than one occassion I have had the benefit >of attending events which sent out flyers and registration forms >stating that they were an AKA sanctioned event. Only to find out later >that they had not even submitted the requests to the AKA. What a >disappointment. The first recourse is to write the organizer and state your displeasure with them over the sanctioning claim. The organizer is responsible for getting sanction. If an organizer claims to be sanctioned and then does not follow through, there is a legitamate reason to be upset with the organizer. Not the AKA. The second action that could be taken would be a reprimand of the organizer by the AKA for making a false claim, inadvertant or not, that the event was sanctioned. This could be public or private. Speaking for myself, I do not believe that this sort of action would find much support on the AKA Board. As far as liability goes, this is normally a legal term and as such the proper course of action would be a law suit against the organizer. However, what would that accomplish? Probably nothing, certainly no monetary damages. The only ones who would benefit from such a course of action would be lawyers in that they would collect fees for services. Speaking for myself, only.... Steve ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Steve Cseplo |A| The Mad Hata | | sc5@prism.gatech.edu |K| | | AKA Region 4 Director |A| "Hey, mon...Tako Kichi!" | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 04:24:40 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3qv438$cdh@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: False Advertising? In <3qv002$nb1@acmex.gatech.edu> sc5@prism.gatech.edu (Stephen P. Cseplo) writes: > >In article <3qto3g$65e@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >Frank Kenisky wrote: > >>What is a competitior to do? > >Grin and bear it! '-) Honestly. True. This is a point well taken. >The first recourse is to write the organizer and state your displeasure >with them over the sanctioning claim. The organizer is responsible for >getting sanction. If an organizer claims to be sanctioned and then >does not follow through, there is a legitamate reason to be upset with >the organizer. Not the AKA. ^^^^^^^^^^^ The AKA is not and was not mentioned as part of the complaint. The issue is with the event organizer. >The second action that could be taken would be a reprimand of the >organizer by the AKA for making a false claim, inadvertant or >not, that the event was sanctioned. This could be public or >private. Speaking for myself, I do not believe that this sort of action >would find much support on the AKA Board. True. Speaking for yourself, I believe that that is a good sence of commitment to the competitor. Speaking not for the rest of the kite gods within the AKA I believe they can probably find a reason not to take any action. >As far as liability goes, this is normally a legal term and as such the >proper course of action would be a law suit against the organizer. However, >what would that accomplish? Probably nothing, certainly no monetary >damages. The only ones who would benefit from such a course of action >would be lawyers in that they would collect fees for services. Yes, liability is a legal term. This is not a question which solisited legal advise. It was to get direct information from competitors who attend kite event on the basis that the event organizers advertise that the event is AKA Sanctioned and in fact is not. Several contestants who have also attended events which have done this have expressed some concern regarding the money laid out to go to and attend an event which used the AKA's sanctioning as a ploy to bring in kiters from out of town with the lure of "Points". The AKA should do something. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 03:32:29 -1000 From: kitejag@aol.com (KITEJAG) Message-Id: <3r1ldd$5ou@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: False Advertising? While I have yet to attend an event which claims sanction and is not, I'm sure it will happen some day. My first question is how prevalent is the practice? If this is happening on a regular basis, then I agree the AKA ought step in...and with all the force of the law available to them. Contrary to Steeve's notion, false advertising is more than a civil issue...it's plain and simple against the law and promoters who violate the law should be prosecuted! It is inthe best inrest of the AKA to pursue such promoters...but again we have to ask how prevalent is the problem? I think as in many problems, a softer initial approach may be benneficial. The AKA has regional directors who ought be checking into events organized within their regions to insure they are sanctioned if so advertised, and to insure there is at least a minimum organizational standard. As bad as non santion of events advertised as sanctioned, are events which ARE sanctioned and so poorly organized and run that they give all of kiting a bad name. I did attend a "sanctioned event" recently which used the wrong forms for scoring competitors, used the wrong format for scoring and used judges who had never scored a kiting event!! The turnout at this event was dismal because of perceived past promotional problems...kinda like the event was set up to be doomed...and everyone sat back and said ai'nt this all so sad!!! Yup, sure was sad!! But were is the fault, if there is fault. Was the regional director even informed this event was taking place in the region...The answer in this case was no!!! Regional directors could and should be used to resolve problems at a regional level. Directors have to receive feddback from the AKA on events intheir region and must keep their fingers on the pulse of events in their regions. A simple phone call to your director or the director in a region where you expect to compete, should be all that is necessary to confirm the event is sanctioned and has at least a snoball's chance in the desert of being successful. John A. Gabby Jr. Think kindly thoughts. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 06:10:25 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <199506061610.AA28008@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: False Advertising Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? -- David Gomberg/Cascade Kites phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 Specializing in BIG "show" kites and Peter Lynn Inflatibles For info, see http;//www.kite.com/~crowell/casckites.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 05:57:21 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3r1tt1$llq@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: False Advertising? In <3r1ldd$5ou@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kitejag@aol.com (KITEJAG) writes: > >While I have yet to attend an event which claims sanction and is not, I'm >sure it will happen some day. My first question is how prevalent is the >practice? If this is happening on a regular basis, then I agree the AKA >ought step in...and with all the force of the law available to them. I don't mean to keep stepping in on this issue but I did bring it up. Therefore, I type. Thanks for the civil discussion and keeping to the point to everone who has cared to discuss this issue. As for the point of how "prevalent" the practice is, is not valid. It should not be that the AKA waits for some trend to take place before it steps in to stop what could be a trend. As for the AKA having any responsibility at all is really not my gripe but your point does bring to issue the sanctioning bodys responsibility. >Contrary to Steeve's notion, false advertising is more than a civil >issue...it's plain and simple against the law and promoters who violate >the law should be prosecuted! It is inthe best inrest of the AKA to >pursue such promoters...but again we have to ask how prevalent is the >problem? Although you are probably not an attorney, I mirror your thoughts. But it should be stopped regardless of how "prevalent" it is. >I think as in many problems, a softer initial approach may be benneficial. > The AKA has regional directors who ought be checking into events >organized within their regions to insure they are sanctioned if so >advertised, and to insure there is at least a minimum organizational >standard. At the two particular events I am refering to there were officers at each. At one of them in particular I can remember a discussion which I sat at the table, where the event organzier was requesting sanctioning, (from a top AKA official) after the event had already began. I don't know what ever became of this and I really don't want to know, because it would make me more than a bit angry if I knew that the AKA sanctioned the event after the fact. >Yup, sure was sad!! But were is the fault, if there is fault. Was the >regional director even informed this event was taking place in the >region...The answer in this case was no!!! The answer in this case was yes!!! -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 10:29:48 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3r2drs$ror@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: False Advertising In <199506061610.AA28008@ednet1.osl.or.gov> dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: > > > >Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed >AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? What's the point of knowing the event? The point is to prevent this from happening again by discussing what to do and what the people, (other than the godz) think should happen. So what good is knowing the event after the fact? The point is mute to know the name of the event the issue is prevention. I'm trying not to point the finger, do you want to point fingers? -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 03:59:52 -1000 From: kitejag@aol.com (KITEJAG) Message-Id: <3r4bco$o3e@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: False Advertising Frank, Just how in the world do you expect a problem to be resolved if YOU are the only one who knows there is a problem, can't resolve the problem yourself and won't share the details of the problem with those who can resolve the problem? I spent time and money responding elsewhere on the net to an issue I thought was valid and found myself agreeing with your point of view. Your latest reponse to David, however, is obsurd...it's that simple. I smell false advertising, alright...reminds me for all in the world of the smell of a cow pasture...was I taken in by another huckster? Sure feels like it! John A. Gabby Jr. Think kindly thoughts. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 03:43:34 -1000 From: td@research.att.com (Tom Duff 0112730) Message-Id: Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ Subject: Re: False Advertising mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) spews: >dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >>Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed >>AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? >So what good is knowing the event after the fact? The point is mute to >know the name of the event the issue is prevention. Maybe he wants to get some facts from the parties involved, rather than rely solely on your second-hand report. In his message, Gomberg is telling you that your concern is warranted, that he shares your concern, and that he wants to know more, so that he can find out in detail what the problem is and how it came about, and what action he should take to express his concern and support for your admirable effort on behalf of the nation's kiteflyers. I wouldn't have chosen to publically snap at someone who is obviously trying to support me, and who, being in a position of influence, is likely to be able to achieve results that I'm advocating. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 03:43:34 -1000 From: td@research.att.com (Tom Duff 0112730) Message-Id: Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ Subject: Re: False Advertising mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) spews: >dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >>Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed >>AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? >So what good is knowing the event after the fact? The point is mute to >know the name of the event the issue is prevention. Maybe he wants to get some facts from the parties involved, rather than rely solely on your second-hand report. In his message, Gomberg is telling you that your concern is warranted, that he shares your concern, and that he wants to know more, so that he can find out in detail what the problem is and how it came about, and what action he should take to express his concern and support for your admirable effort on behalf of the nation's kiteflyers. I wouldn't have chosen to publically snap at someone who is obviously trying to support me, and who, being in a position of influence, is likely to be able to achieve results that I'm advocating. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:43:25 -1000 From: hayden1009@aol.com (Hayden1009) Message-Id: <3r4vgt$sms@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: False Advertising >What's the point of knowing the event? The point is that other flyers will be forewarned for the future. I haven't heard of any EL events not being sanctioned, but it is nice to know and probably the quickest way of scotching this sort of thing in the future. Flyers who care will boycott and word does get around quickly with the advent of the Net. Alice Hayden 8^) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 04:55:26 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3r730u$2up@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: False Advertising In td@research.att.com (Tom Duff <4188-21922> 0112730) writes: > >mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) spews: >>dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >>>Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed >>>AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? >>So what good is knowing the event after the fact? The point is mute to >>know the name of the event the issue is prevention. > >Maybe he wants to get some facts from the parties involved, >rather than rely solely on your second-hand report. > >In his message, Gomberg is telling you that your concern is >warranted, that he shares your concern, and that he wants to >know more, so that he can find out in detail what the problem >is and how it came about, and what action he should take to >express his concern and support for your admirable effort on >behalf of the nation's kiteflyers. > >I wouldn't have chosen to publically snap at someone who is >obviously trying to support me, and who, being in a position >of influence, is likely to be able to achieve results that I'm >advocating. Very nicely written. I do not spew! Your letter points to an interesting solution to the problem. I can see how this could help. And if I snapped at someone who was sincerly trying to help resolve the problem I apologize. You are very right that to get the information from the parties involved would be very helpful so that all the details can be addressed. But as you drool, you also forget the fact that I don't want remedy from what has passed I am looking for discussion regarding how to absolve this and prevent it from happening again, and if it does what action can and should be taken. To point out the purpertrator would be childish. This is also new to me that the AKA has appointed David Gomberg as the Event and Festivals Committee Chair to be the lasion in matters such as this. I only mention this with a puzzle and wrinkle in my forehead. Also, this is reliable second hand information. Information you would probably rely on. If an event is not AKA sanctioned then what jurisdiction does the AKA have over that event? If the event advertises that it is AKA sanctioned and is not then what jurisdiction does the AKA have? I believe that the answer here is "none". If that is so then the issue is one of a civil matter. The point of bringing up the issue is not to seek punishment from the AKA but to discuss among other competitors who might encounter this problem. What would they do? Is this a civil matter? Do you think the event organizers should be liable? What action would you take? And not, write a letter to the AKA. Not to be little the work of the AKA. But really, what can they do? -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 04:37:12 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3r71uo$2ge@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: False Advertising In <3r4bco$o3e@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kitejag@aol.com (KITEJAG) writes: > >Frank, > >Just how in the world do you expect a problem to be resolved if YOU are >the only one who knows there is a problem, can't resolve the problem >yourself and won't share the details of the problem with those who can >resolve the problem? I spent time and money responding elsewhere on the >net to an issue I thought was valid and found myself agreeing with your >point of view. Your latest reponse to David, however, is obsurd...it's >that simple. I smell false advertising, alright...reminds me for all in >the world of the smell of a cow pasture...was I taken in by another >huckster? Sure feels like it! This is trying to avoid the real issue. We only want to know so that we can do one of several things. One thing we can do is all point the finger at the event organzier and say naughty naughty. Another thing we can do is make excuses for them and print a lot more retoric. The point is what should and can be done in the future. This will give contestants a presedence. We don't want to end up providing a blanket ok to event organziers to use this knowing that the presedence we set was to make excuses for them. We want to discuss what is the best redemy to absolve this problem so that it will lessen the chance of it reoccuring. You want to know who. Why? Explain, please. Both you and David Gomberg want to know who? Why? And please give a reason. I and I'm sure many others, who may only lurk, want to know why you want to know who the purpertrator is. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 20:31:32 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: False Advertising mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) writes: >dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >>Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed >>AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? > >What's the point of knowing the event? So that they can do something about it. By talking to the accused, they can find out the situation that lead to the problem. Perhaps: - The organisers applied for sanctioning, advertised it on the assumption that the sanctioning would arrive, then unexpectedly didn't get sanctioned. - Everyone organising the event thought that "someone else had done it" This stuff may, perhaps be easily sorted simply by talking to the people involved. We don't know unless we talk to them. Don't attribute to malice that which can be accounted for by mere incompetence. FX: Andrew slaps Frank around a bit with a large trout -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this->| Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome/index.html I'm in "catch-up" mode. Sorry if this is a little brief... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 03:39:43 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3r9iuv$5ag@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: False Advertising In andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: > >mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) writes: >>dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >>>Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed >>>AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? >> >>What's the point of knowing the event? > >So that they can do something about it. By talking to the accused, >they can find out the situation that lead to the problem. Perhaps: > > - The organisers applied for sanctioning, advertised it on the assumption > that the sanctioning would arrive, then unexpectedly didn't get sanctioned. > > - Everyone organising the event thought that "someone else had done it" > >This stuff may, perhaps be easily sorted simply by talking to the people >involved. We don't know unless we talk to them. > >Don't attribute to malice that which can be accounted for by mere incompetence. > >FX: Andrew slaps Frank around a bit with a large trout Wow! a slap. Well here's a kick to the nutz, (if you have any). There is something which we refer to here in the US as "Conflict of Interest" for those too naive to know what this means let me explain in as layman terms as possible. Does the cliche "Having the fox watching the hen house", mean anything to you. Let me explain to those too stupid to understand this simple cliche. The events in question are run by retail "Kite" outlets. They sell a variety of kites, kite equipment and kite books. David Gomberg sells, wholesale and retail to both of those retail outlets. Is this starting to make sense? Probably not. I'm not interested in getting David Gomberg or for that matter anyone else who may have a vested interest in kite retail sales, involved. He cannot and will not be able to do anything short retoric. But thanks for the help. Also, the event never sent in the sanctioning request and for what I can understand they never intended to. I hope this clears up somethings. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 04:38:02 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3r9mca$lp4@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: False Advertising In <3r9ib2$rg3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kitejag@aol.com (KITEJAG) writes: > >Frank, > >your recent ascertions are straw arguments which serve to create >contreversy where there isn't one!! Whether you want to recognize it or >not, we do have a country of laws and as I've pointed out from the >beginning, there is legal remedy. Yes, the AKA can and should pursue >people who use the name of the AKA in illegal activity. Setting up an >event that wrongfully advertises AKA sanction would be rather like you >setting up a botteling plant in your basement and advertising the end >product as Coca Cola. I'll bet there would be a whole bunch of folks who >would want to know who did what when. I'll also bet when Coca Cola's >attorneys got done there would be fines, jail time and no more problem >with false advertising from Frank's house. I couldn't agree with you more. By this time you would have read the posting regarding why I don't want David Gomberg involved. The remedy is not within the AKA. If I am wrong then please explain what the AKA would do. These contestants went to the event with the hopes of getting their points accumulated towards qualifying to compete at the convention. The AKA says they will accumulate their points regardless. This protects the event organizer not the contestant. The AKA sanctions an event. Sanctioning provides insurance to that event. Only events which are sanctioned can have their points accumulated. How can the AKA accumulate the points of an event which was not sanctioned? This would mean that they had to sanction the event after the fact. How valid does that make the insurance? If these people wanted to take action against the organizer, they would not have a case because the AKA stepped in to advert or provide remedy for the organizer. Meanwhile the event organizer gets off scott free. How is this remedy? >I've said all I care to say on this subject...for better or for worse...we >don't need internal gobly goop to handle situations which, if brought to >the attention of the AKA leadership, would be resolved...end of my >contributions on this subject. No. John, I think you have said all you know about the subject. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 03:29:06 -1000 From: kitejag@aol.com (KITEJAG) Message-Id: <3r9ib2$rg3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: False Advertising Frank, your recent ascertions are straw arguments which serve to create contreversy where there isn't one!! Whether you want to recognize it or not, we do have a country of laws and as I've pointed out from the beginning, there is legal remedy. Yes, the AKA can and should pursue people who use the name of the AKA in illegal activity. Setting up an event that wrongfully advertises AKA sanction would be rather like you setting up a botteling plant in your basement and advertising the end product as Coca Cola. I'll bet there would be a whole bunch of folks who would want to know who did what when. I'll also bet when Coca Cola's attorneys got done there would be fines, jail time and no more problem with false advertising from Frank's house. I've said all I care to say on this subject...for better or for worse...we don't need internal gobly goop to handle situations which, if brought to the attention of the AKA leadership, would be resolved...end of my contributions on this subject. John A. Gabby Jr. Think kindly thoughts. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 15:47:43 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <199506100147.AA18583@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: RE: False Advertising Roughly a week ago, I asked if anyone was aware of specific events that had claimed AKA sanctioning, but didn't actually apply for it. I thought I was relatively well acquainted with events that had been sanctioned last year, and although some had requested it pretty late, I was not aware of any that claimed it without actually having it. So far, no one has stepped forward to identify any particular event in either public or private mail. The concern that someone might claim AKA approval when they don't actually have it is a serious one. But it appear for now, that the charge of "False Advertising" is a "False Alarm". I suggest that anyone with information about any kind of sanctioning abuse inform Darrin Skinner, current chair of the Festivals and Competition Committee. The problem does not appear to be widespread, but if it happens at all, I'm sure Darrin would want to know about it. Thanks! BTW - I'm off to Fano in the morning. It is a fine event, but to my knowledge, is not AKA sanctioned. Please disregard any claims that it is :D :D -- David Gomberg/Cascade Kites phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 Specializing in BIG "show" kites and Peter Lynn Inflatibles For info, see http;//www.kite.com/~crowell/casckites.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 15:24:33 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <199506110124.AA12961@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: RE: False Advertising Frank Keniski has reported that some event, which he refuses to name, claimed AKA sanctioning recently when they didn't actually have that sanctioning. He has now added the outrageous assertion that I looked the other way as AKA President, because the merchant sponsor of the event sells books I have written. Those of you who know me, know this is nonsense. For those of you who don't know me, let me simply say that it is not true. *As AKA President, I did not handle sanctioning requests. This was done by staff and the local Regional Director. *No one seems to know what event Keniski is alluding to. *The great majority of my books are sold to retailers by distributors and I have no idea who buys them or how much they buy. *Keniski says he doesn't want me involved. Most of you know that I retired as AKA President last year after four terms. I don't intend to spend much time responding to Keniski's ongoing complaints against me. Anyone who has ANY concerns about conflicts of interest in AKA should contact Kevin Shannon, Chair of the Ethics Committee. I have forwarded Keniski's allegation to him for Committee review. -- David Gomberg/Cascade Kites phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 Specializing in BIG "show" kites and Peter Lynn Inflatibles For info, see http;//www.kite.com/~crowell/casckites.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 07:22:33 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <3rf8op$fp1@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: False Advertising Andrew Beattie (andrew@tug.com) wrote: : mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) writes: : >dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: : >>Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed : >>AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? : > : >What's the point of knowing the event? : So that they can do something about it. By talking to the accused, : they can find out the situation that lead to the problem. Perhaps: I believe the reason that Frank does not want to tell which event is that it is unimportant. Frank just wants to see some rules put in place so that it does not happen again. The event has already happened, there is nothing that can be done about that "Event", but rules should be put in to prevent it from happening in the future. Rich P.S. Frank maybe you should email the event name to Darrin Skinner, so that he could investigage the event and find out what happened. I don't think that event name should be posted. Maybe the problem was an honest error (i.e. someone got sick or something like that). ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 Coming soon 8' FlashPoints. ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 03:12:02 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (Stephen P. Cseplo) Message-Id: <3r6sv2$7mh@acmew.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: False Advertising In article <3r2drs$ror@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, Frank Kenisky wrote: >(David Gomberg) writes: >> >>Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed >>AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? > >What's the point of knowing the event? Frank asks the question, what is the point? To anybody it should be obvious. But since it isn't.... Speaking in complete generalities that can be applied to any governing body, when a problem creeps, up such as this sanctioning thing, in order for a body to determine the proper course of action, examples of the problem must be presented. A case must be made. In other words, with out a list of events and details as to what happened, there is no proof, no evidence. Only unsubstanciated charges. That is the reason why the event(s) must be known. Speaking only for myself.... Steve ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Steve Cseplo |A| The Mad Hata | | sc5@prism.gatech.edu |K| | | AKA Region 4 Director |A| "Hey, mon...Tako Kichi!" | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:12:17 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky ) Message-Id: <3s7o51$s33@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: RE: False Advertising In <199506110124.AA12961@ednet1.osl.or.gov> dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >Frank Keniski has reported that some event, which he refuses to >name, claimed AKA sanctioning recently when they didn't actually >have that sanctioning. He has now added the outrageous assertion >that I looked the other way as AKA President, because the merchant >sponsor of the event sells books I have written. > >Those of you who know me, know this is nonsense. > >For those of you who don't know me, let me simply say that >it is not true. > >*As AKA President, I did not handle sanctioning requests. This >was done by staff and the local Regional Director. > >*No one seems to know what event Keniski is alluding to. > >*The great majority of my books are sold to retailers by >distributors and I have no idea who buys them or how much they buy. > >*Keniski says he doesn't want me involved. Most of you know that >I retired as AKA President last year after four terms. > >I don't intend to spend much time responding to Keniski's ongoing >complaints against me. Anyone who has ANY concerns about conflicts >of interest in AKA should contact Kevin Shannon, Chair of the >Ethics Committee. I have forwarded Keniski's allegation to him >for Committee review. It has become very obvious that this attempt at defending ones self has turned into an attack. I did state that Mr.Gomberg was infact to close to the issue to be objective. That there was the apperance of a conflict. Which I still believe to be a fact. The point of a conflict of interest is relevant to the matter and should not be taken based on the fact that one states that their intentions are good. It should be based on fact. The fact is that Mr.Gomberg sells kite related items to kite retail outlets. Weather through distributors or not the fact remains that the transaction comes from Mr.Gomberg. It is very disturbing, to me, that we as members of the AKA or just as innocent kite enthusiasts would appoint an overseer who has this shadow of conflict. I feel as a president he did all he could, but as a mediator between the kite consumer and the kite retailer the matter is too close to his own personal interests. As far as this issue is concerned I feel the responses which expressed that concern for "False Advertising" was sufficient to create an awareness among us. Again thanks to all who provided timely responses. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 03:38:47 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky ) Message-Id: <3s97d7$5hc@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: False Advertising In <3rf8op$fp1@news1.shell> skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) writes: > >Andrew Beattie (andrew@tug.com) wrote: >: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) writes: >: >dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >: >>Could someone please tell me the name of an event which claimed >: >>AKA sanctioning last year which was not actually sanctioned? >: > >: >What's the point of knowing the event? > >: So that they can do something about it. By talking to the accused, >: they can find out the situation that lead to the problem. Perhaps: > > I believe the reason that Frank does not want to tell which event is that >it is unimportant. Frank just wants to see some rules put in place so that >it does not happen again. The event has already happened, there is nothing >that can be done about that "Event", but rules should be put in to prevent >it from happening in the future. Finally, someone with some sense!!! >P.S. Frank maybe you should email the event name to Darrin Skinner, so that >he could investigage the event and find out what happened. I don't think >that event name should be posted. Maybe the problem was an honest error (i.e. >someone got sick or something like that). The matter is being investigated a bit further by SWSKC Staff. (Not myself) I have mentioned one event to Alice Hayden. I leave it to her to disclose the name of the event if she or anyone else feels it necessary. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 08:02:23 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <199506211802.AA14782@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: RE: False Advertising The "mysterious" event that Frank says claimed AKA sanctioning, but didn't actually receive it was the KiteFest, sponsored by the KiteLoft of New Orleans last November. Mr. Nasty confirmed this information to Richard Dermer who then passed it along to me. Some of you may recall that Frank was originally hired (compensated) to manage part of this event, but was then dismissed after the first day. The event was advertised as being part of the Southwest Sport Kite League, but Frank decided, after the event, that it had not satisfied League standards so scores for fliers who competed were not counted. I think, Frank, that this constitutes a bit of false advertising, and conflict of interest on your part. Incidentally, the KiteFest applied for AKA sanctioning in mid September and received it, by a vote of the Board of Directors, on October 12. I didn't vote since the President only votes in the case of a tie. Come to think of it, I NEVER voted once in four years as president. -- David Gomberg/Cascade Kites phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 Specializing in BIG "show" kites and Peter Lynn Inflatibles For info, see http;//www.kite.com/~crowell/casckites.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 11:16:20 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: False Advertising dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov writes: >The "mysterious" event that Frank says claimed AKA sanctioning, but >didn't actually receive it was the KiteFest, sponsored by the >KiteLoft of New Orleans last November. FX: Andrew rolling on the floor with laughter So while Frank was so determinedly trying to convince us that the name of the vent was irrelevant, it turns out to be the event that sacked him half way through! I don't need to know any more about the incident... Now, what was I saying about Frank wasting peoples time...? Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this->| Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome/index.html note: A 1 hour local evening call costs 20more after BT's latest price-cut. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 03:34:37 -1000 From: kitejag@aol.com (KITEJAG) Message-Id: <3seftd$sku@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: False Advertising I agree with Andrew, pretty funny stuff...and I notice there is a strange lack of participation on this thread from his Frankness. I'm sure there is some kind of unreasonable explination but I feel even more betrayed than most by this slime ball. Through his AKA application process I talked about freedom of expression and freedom of speech and the right of an individual to be different...and it turns out the guy nothing more than common liar! Frank owes the whole world an apology which I doubt we'll ever see. The question is no longer what do we do with event organizers who advertise AKA sanction and don't have it, but rather what do we do with liars who undertake to slander event organizers! I, for one, would like to see civil actions brought against Frank by the event organizers (slander and liable would seem like pretty reasonable charges). It may well be the only way to stop such moronic behavior. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever believe another word that comes out of Frank's mouth. He ought chane his name from Mr Nasty to Mr Liar. John A. Gabby Jr. Think kindly thoughts. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:56:41 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky ) Message-Id: <3sf9q9$s1j@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: RE: False Advertising In <199506211802.AA14782@ednet1.osl.or.gov> dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: > >The "mysterious" event that Frank says claimed AKA sanctioning, but >didn't actually receive it was the KiteFest, sponsored by the >KiteLoft of New Orleans last November. Mr. Nasty confirmed this >information to Richard Dermer who then passed it along to me. Sorry but I seemed to have missed the posting. Thanks to Richard Dermer. It was Richard Dermer (AKA Regional Director) and Abel Ortega (AKA conference Commissioner) who confermed to me that the event was not AKA sanctioned. Maybe they were not part of the good ole boy communications link. But they relayed this to others who attended the event. Actually, Abel communicated the information to other members of the Texas Skyriders that the event had never submitted AKA sanctioning. This was told to Abel by someone on the AKA board. I then asked Richard Dermer to confirm this, Richard stated that what Abel told me was true. For John: Then am I correct to say that if I lied, the so did a AKA Regional Director and an AKA Conference Commissioner? >Some of you may recall that Frank was originally hired (compensated) >to manage part of this event, but was then dismissed after the first >day. The event was advertised as being part of the Southwest >Sport Kite League, but Frank decided, after the event, that it >had not satisfied League standards so scores for fliers who >competed were not counted. True, I was compensated, but not dismissed. As a matter of fact the Texas Skyriders Newsletter's article, "In My Opinion" memtions the lack of management >From the event organizers of that event. David Gomberg sent a letter to Cynthia Salazar which stated that he was glad someone brought out the issue because he was caught between a rock and a hard place. Especially when they started changing the rules which they had agreed to. (AKA Rules) >I think, Frank, that this constitutes a bit of false advertising, >and conflict of interest on your part. Wrong, this is following the rules set in place by the governing body the AKA, of which you obviously know nothing about. You see when an event requests sanctioning they agree to abide by rules set forth within the AKA. These rules are set in place as a measure of safety for the contestants and spectators. When an event requests this sanctioning and then do not follow the rules then they have violated the agreement. By violating this agreement then they place themselves in a questionable state of liability. (Of course I really don't know this since I have never seen the actual AKA insurance policy. Although, I have asked for it several times I have been refused.) As for the SWSKC, when an event states that it will follow AKA sanctioning proceedures then I will include them in the scoring. If an event violates that agreement with the AKA, I will not allow scoring. It's that simple. The contestants understand that logic, it makes sense. >Incidentally, the KiteFest applied for AKA sanctioning in mid >September and received it, by a vote of the Board of Directors, >on October 12. I didn't vote since the President only votes in >the case of a tie. Great, if I could get a copy of the original which they submitted then I will pass this information along to the proper individuals who questioned it. I would like also just to verify your statement, (and I am not calling you a liar but I would like this for my records) a copy of the check used to pay the $25 sanctioning fee and the request. It should be public information. I know I can receive it, either by asking or by other means. I'm calling your hand. Why, because it's too easy for you to make this story up. Why then did a Regional Director and a Conference Commissioner not have this information? >Come to think of it, I NEVER voted once in four years as president. I'm touched. BTW - this is a formal request to the listening and reading board, I would like the above information to verify the sanctioning of this event. I can then futher verify this with a cancelled check. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 16:37:33 -1000 From: dbarnes@whidbey.net (dick barnes) Message-Id: <3sftpd$di@islander.whidbey.net> Organization: The Whidbey Connection Subject: Re: False Advertising >John A. Gabby Jr. > >Think kindly thoughts. Maybe you otta think about chnaging your signature.. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =