Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 23:55:41 -1000 From: gtt_grif@pat.uwe.ac.uk (GTT Griffith) Message-Id: <1993Sep14.095541.18512@pat.uwe.ac.uk> Organization: University of the West of England, Bristol Subject: 'Independent' article on Jumping Copied from 'The Independent' without permission, but Hey, they won't mind! Recklessle into the lap of the gods The latest daredevils use kites to rocket into the sky at six times the force of gravity. James Kanter meets Britains record breaking power jumper A British version of Evil Knievel, that american icon of seventies daredevilry is alive and well and living in cornwall. This nineties new ager works in a bookstore but at weekendshe cand be found a bit further up the coast leaving the coast at six times the force of gravity Unlike Knievel, Keiron Chattergea,22 does not use a motorcycle in his death defying feats. Instead, he holds the Guiness World Record for "power Jumping", a kind of wind assissted human propulsion. Without explosives or fuel and using little more than a stack of three lilo-shaped kites, Keiron enterred the history books last year by cannonballing himself 105ft (32m). Power jumping is so dangerous that most *pilots* are loath to call it a sport, yet many continue to participate in formal comps. Keiron broke his collar bone jumping four years ago. a chairman of the American kitefliers association shattered his pelvis in 91, and a dutchman fell 30 ft to his death last uyear in an attemt to jump with kites while tethered to the ground with a harness. If I had known ho lunatic this was going to be , I would never have started it, says Keiron, but as a pioneer I feel I have a responsibility to make it feel safer for the other maniacs out there who are bound to give it h a go. He dismisses the idea that power jumping is merely paragliding for paupers. "Some power kites have the same canopy shape as paragliders for 1/4 of the price" he says "but that is where the comparison stops" "People wha paraglide use existing wiind to jump of mountains, whereas power jumpers capture enough wind to take off under trheir own steam. I like to think of power jumping as environmentally friendly hot rod racing." The key to a safe launch is to have one leg on the ground, the other locked against a post or ditch. Leaning back at 45deg, you should be able to bring the kites smoothly from the minimum power position, on one side of the wind, into the performance window, where they surge upwards with explosive power. Past this point, "you are in the hands of the gods", says Keiron. Like it or not, your body somersaults forward into the air, legs above your head and arms stretched to their limits by the massive accelleration. Once you have reached 25ft, your body swings forward like a pendulum, until it is slowed by the canopy of kites over your head. The average touch down occurs at about 20mph, but where you will land is never certain. K says that, rather than heavy protective gear, good flexibility, a helmet, and plenty of wet grass for sliding along are the best protection against injury. This enormous pull fromn the wind was first harnessed by the Flexifoil power kite, invented by two Brits 18 years ago. The saw it as the Formula One of the kite world, but intended it that it be flown in the traditional way, feet on the ground. The flexi is to kites what the microchip is to computing: it concentrates power and speed, ushering in a new era of acrobatics fo rthe sport. Andrew Jones, co-develop[er and manufacturer of the flexi says " we designed a kite with a sinmgle glass fibre spar which flexes, or bends, so that its aerofoil shape is always at an optimal position to the wind. Using stacks of them to turn people into human cannonballs never occured to us. "I think K has been lucky not to get killed. Frankly, we try to keep low key about the jumping thing. But there are always going to be mad people who will do this kind of thing. Soon we may have to include instructions for customers, something like 'WARNING: following these precautions before jumping and you have x 0reater chance of survival.'" Flexifoil International in Newmarket says that of thye 12,000 kites it sells each year in the UK, 1,400 are the 10ft models suitable for jumping. of the hundreds of potential users of these kites for power jumping, only four people in Britain have the ability to jump safely, says K. As a result, he is converting his college dissertation on power kiting into a safety manual for jumpers. He fears that with costs as low as 300 pounds to get airborne (the minimum kit includes two 10ft flexis, handles and 150ft of 400lb lines) other people may soon be killed. Andy King, owner of The Kite Store in Covent Garden, confirms that the inter est in the sport has been growing. "Until recently, only relatively insane people in the kite industry were doing it", he says, "now we are getting lots of City boys coming in saying 'sell me three of your biggest Flexis, I'm really going for it this weekend.' Those are the naive ones we need to dis- courage." If Kite Store customers want more excitement, Mr.King is will try to persuade them to buy a kite powered three-wheeled buggy instead of a jumping kit. But there are no formal restrictions on buying power kites. Sales of Flexis, ranging from 6 to 12.5ft, are left to the discretion of the kites 150 British retailers. "Everyone has a right to die, but I don't want to be the one responsible", says Mr. King. "The kite industry is right to promote buggying rather than jumping as the wave of the future, evem though buggying costs twice as much; on the ground at 40mph it is simply safer than rocketing through the air at god knows what velocity". Keiron's worst moment came last December when he let his younger brother Robin have a go. "His take off was all wrong. He was heading for towards the edge of a cliff, so he let go in mid air, didn't have a chance to brake and fainted out of sheer terror." "He hit the ground at 70mph, suffered loads of internal bleeding, and ripped a kidney. He's all right now, but the worst thing was that my whole family was standing on the cliff, watching helplessly." Despite this harrowing experience, K is jumping again at the week long second Gwithian Sport Kite Classic in Cornwall, Which started on Saturday (11/9/93) . He hopes to fly as far as 215ft (65m), reaching heights of 35ft, his personal best. Mick Parsons, founder of the event, admits, "this is the most unviable sport ever. It is taking people beyond the borders of normal physical sanity and sensibility. It has no future, but realistically we can't stop the pirates and cowboys from doing it". Nevertheless, he says he will be welcoming top jumpers from France, South Africa and America at Gwithian. "They all say they can easily better Keiron's record of 32m, so we're in for a spectacular competition. It will just be a case of doubling up on the number of paramedics." Keiron, who also holds the world speed record for buggying at 39mph, is about to have his first book, *Power Kiting* published by the University of Wales. He hopes to make enough money from it to leave his wind-battered caravan on the cornish coast and find somewhere in the Tropics where he can create an outdoor sports resort. When asked why he keeps jumping, he becomes philosophical: "Go back to Aristotle. In *The Ethics*, he talks about a kind of vertigo sensation, one of the four fundamental physical sensations that all human beings share. "People used to jump from great heights into the ocean to master their fear of heights. Maybe some of us are still challenging nature for the same reasons. I have stood at the edge of cliffs and wanted to jump off, you know, just to experience the feeling of flying." Written by James Kanter Photos by, well it doesn't matter coz you can't see them!! Copied labouriously by George. Good article don't you think? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 04:19:09 -1000 From: ye79@gec-mrc.co.uk (ye79) Message-Id: <1993Sep23.142032.5141@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping I think this 'Independent' article deserves some comment. Sorry I haven't made any sooner, I've been on holiday :-) George writes: >Copied from 'The Independent' without permission, but Hey, they won't mind! > >Recklessle into the lap of the gods > >The latest daredevils use kites to rocket into the sky at six times the force >of gravity. James Kanter meets Britains record breaking power jumper > >A British version of Evil Knievel, that american icon of seventies daredevilry >is alive and well and living in cornwall. This nineties new ager works in a >bookstore but at weekendshe cand be found a bit further up the coast leaving >the coast at six times the force of gravity > >Unlike Knievel, Keiron Chattergea,22 does not use a motorcycle in his death >defying feats. Instead, he holds the Guiness World Record for "power Jumping", >a kind of wind assissted human propulsion. Without explosives or fuel and >using little more than a stack of three lilo-shaped kites, Keiron enterred >the history books last year by cannonballing himself 105ft (32m). > >Power jumping is so dangerous that most *pilots* are loath to call it a >sport, yet many continue to participate in formal comps. Keiron broke his >collar bone jumping four years ago. a chairman of the American kitefliers >association shattered his pelvis in 91, and a dutchman fell 30 ft to his >death last uyear in an attemt to jump with kites while tethered to the ground >with a harness. As I understand it Dean Jordan and the Dutchman were involved in man-lifting rather than jumping when their accidents occurred. However, this article is not about the ordinary, everyday 3 10ft Flexis jumping many of us have tried. This is a whole different ball game. Record attempts in many (most) sports require a different level of training and commitment than ordinary participation. If I tried to run a mile in 3 3/4 minutes it might kill me, it doesn't mean that running is dangerous. >If I had known ho lunatic this was going to be , I would never have started >it, says Keiron, but as a pioneer I feel I have a responsibility to make >it feel safer for the other maniacs out there who are bound to give it h >a go. I don't know who started the jumping thing, but IMHO it seems like a very natural way of depowering the kites it certain situations. It was bound to be discovered. I think that, with both feet on the ground, and the kites high in the wind window, jumping can be done safely. However, it's not obvious to me how you'd make the record breaking types of jump safer. >He dismisses the idea that power jumping is merely paragliding for paupers. >"Some power kites have the same canopy shape as paragliders for 1/4 of the >price" he says "but that is where the comparison stops" And some people spend more on power kites than on paragliders. I live in a part of the UK with no mountains. I'd probably try paragliding if I didn't have to drive 500 miles return to participate in the sport if I enjoyed it. Power kiting is a practical alternative for me and I'd be surprised to learn that it's more dangerous than paragliding. >"People wha paraglide use existing wiind to jump of mountains, whereas >power jumpers capture enough wind to take off under trheir own steam. >I like to think of power jumping as environmentally friendly hot rod >racing." > >The key to a safe launch is to have one leg on the ground, the other >locked against a post or ditch. Leaning back at 45deg, you should be able >to bring the kites smoothly from the minimum power position, on one side >of the wind, into the performance window, where they surge upwards with >explosive power. This bracing is the difference between the huge (long ~100ft, high ~25ft) dangerous jumps, and the reasonably safe (short ~10-20ft, low ~3-5ft) jumps that most people do. I've seen video of people breaking 500lb line when bracing themselves like this. Bracing one leg only seems to be even crazier, when you take off you are bound to spin as well as rocket into the air. I personally would say this is the key to an unsafe launch. I think in a safe launch you would have both feet on the ground. If you get dragged along a bit this will depower the kites to some extent. You can still jump, not so high, not so far, much safer. >Past this point, "you are in the hands of the gods", says Keiron. Like it >or not, your body somersaults forward into the air, legs above your head and >arms stretched to their limits by the massive accelleration. > >Once you have reached 25ft, your body swings forward like a pendulum, until >it is slowed by the canopy of kites over your head. The average touch down >occurs at about 20mph, but where you will land is never certain. K says >that, rather than heavy protective gear, good flexibility, a helmet, and >plenty of wet grass for sliding along are the best protection against injury. > >This enormous pull fromn the wind was first harnessed by the Flexifoil >power kite, invented by two Brits 18 years ago. The saw it as the Formula >One of the kite world, but intended it that it be flown in the traditional >way, feet on the ground. The flexi is to kites what the microchip is to >computing: it concentrates power and speed, ushering in a new era of >acrobatics fo rthe sport. Andrew Jones, co-develop[er and manufacturer >of the flexi says " we designed a kite with a sinmgle glass fibre spar >which flexes, or bends, so that its aerofoil shape is always at an optimal >position to the wind. Using stacks of them to turn people into human >cannonballs never occured to us. > >"I think K has been lucky not to get killed. Frankly, we try to keep low >key about the jumping thing. But there are always going to be mad people who >will do this kind of thing. Soon we may have to include instructions for >customers, something like 'WARNING: following these precautions before jumping >and you have x 0reater chance of survival.'" > >Flexifoil International in Newmarket says that of thye 12,000 kites it sells >each year in the UK, 1,400 are the 10ft models suitable for jumping. of the >hundreds of potential users of these kites for power jumping, only four >people in Britain have the ability to jump safely, says K. Perhaps only four can do the big jumps safely, even then I'd say it was debatable. Lots of people can jump. >As a result, he is converting his college dissertation on power kiting >into a safety manual for jumpers. He fears that with costs as low as >300 pounds to get airborne (the minimum kit includes two 10ft flexis, >handles and 150ft of 400lb lines) other people may soon be killed. This reads to me like a recipe for disaster. People should be encouraged to build up to jumping kit one kite at a time rather than buy it all at once. >Andy King, owner of The Kite Store in Covent Garden, confirms that the inter >est in the sport has been growing. "Until recently, only relatively insane >people in the kite industry were doing it", he says, "now we are getting lots >of City boys coming in saying 'sell me three of your biggest Flexis, I'm >really going for it this weekend.' Those are the naive ones we need to dis- >courage." Sounds like natural selection is still working then :-) How can you save people from themselves? I was offered 2 10ft and 1 8ft Flexis by a kite shop in Cornwall once, knock down prices, barely used second hand. It turned out that they'd been bought new the day before by someone who wanted to try jumping. He'd managed to put himself in hospital by trying to jump before he knew how to handle the kites. His wife had brought them back to the shop. The shop owner said he wouldn't have sold him the kites if he'd realised that he didn't know what he was doing. I wouldn't go out tomorrow and buy a 1000cc motorbike, it would probably be the death of me. However (some) people ride these motorbikes safely. You must respect the forces you are trying to harness. >If Kite Store customers want more excitement, Mr.King is will try to persuade >them to buy a kite powered three-wheeled buggy instead of a jumping kit. >But there are no formal restrictions on buying power kites. Sales of Flexis, >ranging from 6 to 12.5ft, are left to the discretion of the kites 150 British >retailers. "Everyone has a right to die, but I don't want to be the one >responsible", says Mr. King. Responsibility lies with the flier rather than the retailer. If the flier is suitably informed it's really up to them. It's a good job Andy King doesn't sell cigarettes. >"The kite industry is right to promote buggying rather than jumping as the >wave of the future, evem though buggying costs twice as much; on the ground >at 40mph it is simply safer than rocketing through the air at god knows >what velocity". Unfortunately you need a lot more space for buggying. It is not obviously safer than jumping to the uninformed (park warden for example). I'm afraid that buggying may mean that one of my local flying grounds, which has a bridleway across one corner, may be closed to all kites. >Keiron's worst moment came last December when he let his younger brother >Robin have a go. "His take off was all wrong. He was heading for towards >the edge of a cliff, so he let go in mid air, didn't have a chance to brake >and fainted out of sheer terror." > >"He hit the ground at 70mph, suffered loads of internal bleeding, and ripped a >kidney. He's all right now, but the worst thing was that my whole family was >standing on the cliff, watching helplessly." > >Despite this harrowing experience, K is jumping again at the week long second >Gwithian Sport Kite Classic in Cornwall, Which started on Saturday (11/9/93) >. He hopes to fly as far as 215ft (65m), reaching heights of 35ft, his >personal best. > >Mick Parsons, founder of the event, admits, "this is the most unviable sport >ever. It is taking people beyond the borders of normal physical sanity and >sensibility. It has no future, but realistically we can't stop the pirates >and cowboys from doing it". Pirates and cowboys jumping will injure themselves, buggying they could injure any number of innocent bystanders. Surely Mick Parsons realises that by running this event more people will try this type of kiting. >Nevertheless, he says he will be welcoming top jumpers from France, South >Africa and America at Gwithian. "They all say they can easily better Keiron's >record of 32m, so we're in for a spectacular competition. It will just be a >case of doubling up on the number of paramedics." I believe the new record is 34m. I don't know who holds it, it isn't Keiron though. I also don't know whether anybody was injured in the record attempts. I'd guess not or it would have hit the news. >Keiron, who also holds the world speed record for buggying at 39mph, is >about to have his first book, *Power Kiting* published by the University >of Wales. He hopes to make enough money from it to leave his wind-battered >caravan on the cornish coast and find somewhere in the Tropics where he can >create an outdoor sports resort. > >When asked why he keeps jumping, he becomes philosophical: "Go back to >Aristotle. In *The Ethics*, he talks about a kind of vertigo sensation, >one of the four fundamental physical sensations that all human beings >share. > >"People used to jump from great heights into the ocean to master their fear of >heights. Maybe some of us are still challenging nature for the same reasons. >I have stood at the edge of cliffs and wanted to jump off, you know, just to >experience the feeling of flying." > > >Written by James Kanter >Photos by, well it doesn't matter coz you can't see them!! > >Copied labouriously by George. > >Good article don't you think? Very spectacular, I hope my mother hasn't read it :-) Unfortunately this sort of article encourages pirates and cowboys to have a go. Craze sport here we come. I expect I'll see power kiting hitting the news more often from now on, possibly ending in some sort of restriction :-( Do *you* think jumping's so dangerous? Chris -- Dr. Christopher J. Willis, Tel: +44 245 473331 Ext. 3668/3233 GEC-Marconi Research Centre, Fax: +44 245 475244 Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Internet: ye79@uk.co.gec-mrc Essex CM2 8HN UK = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 07:15:17 -1000 From: sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) Message-Id: <27slj5$n61@news.umi.com> Organization: University Microfilms Inc. Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping In article WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) writes: >In article <1993Sep23.142032.5141@das.harvard.edu> ye79@gec-mrc.co.uk (ye79) writes: >** > > >>You must respect the forces you are trying to harness. > >While I somewhat agree with you, I think that no matter how much you respect >some things, it still isn't good enough. Some people may do Jumping or >motorbike riding more safely than others, but there is an inherent risk of >accident that can not be tamed by simply respecting it. Things happen. > >I'm not saying people shouldn't do what gives them a rush; all I'm saying is >that respect doesn't make something safe. Only safer than before. Personally, >I think jumping looks very fun and rather scary, but I'll probably never try >it, since the basic risks involved in the activity, along with the >repercussions it would have on my family should something happen would be too >great. > >>Responsibility lies with the flier rather than the retailer. If the >>flier is suitably informed it's really up to them. It's a good job > >Agreed! > I'll jump on the respect boat also. Any kite that come close to lifting my 300+ pound 6'-6" body deserves my respect. I like to keep close to good ol' terra firma. Besides more kites in the stack or bigger kites carry a bigger price tag. Sam = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 05:59:09 -1000 From: WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) Message-Id: Organization: Novell, Inc Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping In article <1993Sep23.142032.5141@das.harvard.edu> ye79@gec-mrc.co.uk (ye79) writes: ** >I wouldn't go out tomorrow and buy a 1000cc motorbike, it would >probably be the death of me. However (some) people ride these >motorbikes safely. >You must respect the forces you are trying to harness. While I somewhat agree with you, I think that no matter how much you respect some things, it still isn't good enough. Some people may do Jumping or motorbike riding more safely than others, but there is an inherent risk of accident that can not be tamed by simply respecting it. Things happen. I'm not saying people shouldn't do what gives them a rush; all I'm saying is that respect doesn't make something safe. Only safer than before. Personally, I think jumping looks very fun and rather scary, but I'll probably never try it, since the basic risks involved in the activity, along with the repercussions it would have on my family should something happen would be too great. >Responsibility lies with the flier rather than the retailer. If the >flier is suitably informed it's really up to them. It's a good job Agreed! Wes -------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Voss WVOSS@NOVELL.COM Disclaimer: These are just my opinions, and no one else's! Views expressed in email messages are not necessarily those of Novell. ______________________________________________________________ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 06:26:09 -1000 From: lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca (Larry Marshall) Message-Id: Organization: Canadian Forest Service - Petawawa National Forestry Institute Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping In <1993Sep23.142032.5141@das.harvard.edu> ye79@gec-mrc.co.uk (ye79) writes: >Unfortunately this sort of article encourages pirates and cowboys to >have a go. Craze sport here we come. I expect I'll see power kiting >hitting the news more often from now on, possibly ending in some sort >of restriction :-( The sad thing would be if those restrictions spill over into kiting in general. Parks prohibiting kiting due to liability insurance reason, for instance. Possibly requirements to be a licensed kite flyer might come as a result. The world of model airplanes is full of stories about people who believed that safety issues were not a problem for them because they didn't do this or that form of the hobby. But then the accident makes the newspaper and all flying, regardless of type becomes prohibited. The same has taken place in that hobby with respect to noise. Field after field has been lost because people didn't smell the roses, so to speak, and police their own backyards. Interestingly, when the planes are banned because of noise, it's very difficult for those flying electric airplanes or sailplanes to convince anyone that they aren't part of the problem and they lose too. It's something to think about. ---------- Larry Marshall lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca Forestry Canada (613) 589-2880 Petawawa National Forestry Institute (613) 589-2275 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 11:54:00 -1000 From: sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Sep23.215400.9782@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping In article <1993Sep23.142032.5141@das.harvard.edu>, ye79@gec-mrc.co.uk (ye79) writes: stuff about power kiting and jumping deleted... >Responsibility lies with the flier rather than the retailer. If the >flier is suitably informed it's really up to them. It's a good job >Andy King doesn't sell cigarettes. Maybe in the UK this is true. However, in the USA the retailer might be at fault. An example is the case where a bartender is sued because one of his customers killed someone by running them over with a car. It was determined that the bartender was acting irresponsibly by serving someone who was already drunk. >Unfortunately this sort of article encourages pirates and cowboys to >have a go. Craze sport here we come. I expect I'll see power kiting >hitting the news more often from now on, possibly ending in some sort >of restriction :-( Yes, it will become more popular and there will be more and more incidents. It's the result of what my SO calls "testosterone poisining". >Do *you* think jumping's so dangerous? I think that jumping is dangerous because it is harder than it looks. What could be easier than sweeping a stunt kite through the power zone and then jumping into the air? People don't have experience with being hoisted into the air, and like all things jumping is easier after some practice. On serveral occasiona I've watched a newcomer to power kiting have the kites start flying out of control. One time the kites struck an innocent bystander. Fortunately the bystander wasn't hurt, just a bit shook up. I don't allow power kiting at my events because I can't take the chance that someone will get hurt. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 20:30:27 -1000 From: dbell@lobby.ti.com (Dick Bell) Message-Id: <930924003027@dbell.dseg.ti.com> Organization: Texas Instruments Inc Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping In article <1993Sep23.142032.5141@das.harvard.edu> ye79@gec-mrc.co.uk (ye79) writes: >> Lots of stuff deleted! >> Unfortunately this sort of article encourages pirates and cowboys to >> have a go. Craze sport here we come. I expect I'll see power kiting >> hitting the news more often from now on, possibly ending in some sort >> of restriction :-( >> >> Do *you* think jumping's so dangerous? >> >> Chris Chris, We sorta like our cowboys out here. 8:> Besides, power kiting is a lot easier than riding a bull. At least I can get the kites into the car. 8:> (and it's not as messy either) -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed here are my own and not Texas Instruments ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dick Bell dbell@lobby.ti.com Texas Instruments Dallas, Tx. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 07:53:45 -1000 From: lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca (Larry Marshall) Message-Id: Organization: Canadian Forest Service - Petawawa National Forestry Institute Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping In WVOSS@novell.com (Wes Voss) writes: >>I wouldn't go out tomorrow and buy a 1000cc motorbike, it would >>probably be the death of me. However (some) people ride these >>motorbikes safely. >>You must respect the forces you are trying to harness. >While I somewhat agree with you, I think that no matter how much you respect >some things, it still isn't good enough. Some people may do Jumping or >motorbike riding more safely than others, but there is an inherent risk of >accident that can not be tamed by simply respecting it. Things happen. Another way in which this analogy breaks down is one of culpability of the guy who ends up in the newspaper with his skull mashed in. In the case of the motorcycle that guy must be licensed and there are rules concerning the operation of such a vehicle. If the accident occurs because the driver violates the rules, it is he, not motorcycles that are damned. As far as I know, there are no rules to define kite-flying and thus, kites become dangerous or safe based upon what general perception and there is no distinction made between those who act rationally (whatever that is) and those who are not. There is no distinction between the daredevil pushing the limits of the technology (in motorcycles these guys do it under very controlled conditions or they are breaking the law) and everyone else. ---------- Larry Marshall lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca Forestry Canada (613) 589-2880 Petawawa National Forestry Institute (613) 589-2275 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 23:30:16 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: >I don't allow power kiting at my events because I can't take the >chance that someone will get hurt. That's a kind of sweeping ban. I don't want to attack Marty, but I'd like to explore his point of view further. Do you allow: Jumping? Buggying? Kite Sailing? Roller Blading? Sliding? Do you ban any of these kites: Peels? (what size?) Quads? (what size?) Flexies? (what size?) Force 10? (what size?) Paraflex? (what size?) What is your maximum size of: Single line Delta? Multi line Delta? Parafoil? Display kite? (legs/octopus/turtle/frog etc) What is the maximum line strenght you permit to be used? Single line? Multi-line? Do you permit: Rok fighting? Indian fighting? Manja? Do you permit the use of: Anchor stakes? Vehicle anchors? Andbag anchors? Kevlar? Do you mark off your arenas with metal stakes? Are the rules different inside/outside arenas? Please note: these questions are intended to explore the problem, not to attack Marty's stance. Andrew -- Work: gaffer@plx.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Car: +44 831 527 614 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 00:55:52 -1000 From: ye79@gec-mrc.co.uk (ye79) Message-Id: <1993Sep24.105653.15704@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping andrew@tug.com writes: >>I don't know who started the jumping thing, but IMHO it seems like a >>very natural way of depowering the kites it certain situations. >The natural way to depour the kites is to slide. It is unusual for the >kite to lift you off the ground without provocation. I wasn't really considering an involuntary jump. I remember you writing in an earlier post (about flying six 10ft Flexis on 45lb line) of how you jumped when a gust caught the kites in order to stop the line from breaking. However I agree with you that sliding is more natural. >>I think that, with both feet on the ground, >>and the kites high in the wind window, jumping can be done safely. >I'd hesitate to refer to any kite jumping as safe, but certainly, >slow, upward jumps from very large kites are not as dangerous as fast, >long low jumps. I agree. >>>As a result, he is converting his college dissertation on power kiting >>>into a safety manual for jumpers. He fears that with costs as low as >>>300 pounds to get airborne (the minimum kit includes two 10ft flexis, >>>handles and 150ft of 400lb lines) other people may soon be killed. >This is a major problem. 2 10' flexies is the most dangerous kite I >have ever jumped with. You can learn some very useful skills with two Flexis without being overpowered most of the time. You don't need them for one Flexi but you do need them for all really large kites. As I understand it, you learned this way. >>This reads to me like a recipe for disaster. People should be >>encouraged to build up to jumping kit one kite at a time rather than >>buy it all at once. >Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The safest^H^H^H^H^H least >dangerous stuff is *very* large (well in excess of 100 square feet). >very few people get the chance to start at that end. Would you let a beginner fly one of these kites? It always seems to me that the first thing they do is put the kite into a power dive. They then discover they can't pull out. Crash. That is if they don't get pulled over and dragged about. It could put the victim off kiting for life. >>You must respect the forces you are trying to harness. >However, Joe Public has sod all idea what the forces are and the right >thing to do is often counter intuitive [surely a smaller stack wouldn't >be as dangerous as a huge stack, surely if a kite makes you slide, it >would be safer to anchor the lines and use a harness] So what we're saying is that education and practice is required. And I would suggest building up to big kites over time and with experience. >Hmm.. yes. Serious Buggying is proving to be safer than serious cycling. Perhaps this is because serious buggying takes place in reasonably remote places whereas most cycling is on the road. >You've got to be fairly dumb to hurt a non-buggier. Lets face it, some people are very dumb. I assume here you are talking about the responsible buggier, the one who wouldn't go out and buy the three biggest Flexis to try jumping at the weekend. >Consider the most plausable senarios: >1) Kite hits bystander. > Most buggy kites are completely soft (peel/quad) and unlikely to do any > serious damage. (Outlaw framed kites & flexies?) Depends on the bystander, shock can kill. >6) Pilot falls out of buggy (perhaps while taking avoiding action), buggy > hits bystander. > Requires avoiding action by bystander. Buggy is low and easy to jump > over (if bystander is able). This is silly. >7) Pilot flies line into bystander. (perhaps the most serious danger?) > Pilot should release line before collision. Pilot should release line > early if heading towards bystander without control. You are asking a lot of the pilot. Hopefully a responsible one wouldn't get themselves into these types of situation in the first place. >Can anyone suggest a senario where the bystander is likely to be injured >by a responsible pilot? Innocent bystander becomes entangled with/tries to catch kite line? What about the irresponsible pilot? They do exist you know. >>Do *you* think jumping's so dangerous? >In a word: Yes. Can you justify this for the responsible jumper? Chris -- Dr. Christopher J. Willis, Tel: +44 245 473331 Ext. 3668/3233 GEC-Marconi Research Centre, Fax: +44 245 475244 Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Internet: ye79@uk.co.gec-mrc Essex CM2 8HN UK = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 06:48:45 -1000 From: sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Sep24.164845.18707@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping In article , andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: >>I don't allow power kiting at my events because I can't take the >>chance that someone will get hurt. > >That's a kind of sweeping ban. I don't want to attack Marty, but >I'd like to explore his point of view further. Yes, it is a sweeping ban. And it isn't really true. I do allow power kiting, but only in ways that I consider safe. Yes, it's a judgement call, but I don't want to put my AKA insurance coverage at risk. Also, I want to limit my own liability (a real concern in the USA) as much as possible. Since I'm in charge of a single event, a stunt kite contest with limited single line kites off in another field, and since the actual flying area is relatively small, it is easy to police the area. >Do you allow: >Jumping? >Buggying? >Kite Sailing? >Roller Blading? >Sliding? This hasn't been an issue. It will be, and some guidelines will have to be set up. I have banned lifting, especially after Dean Jordan's injury. >Do you ban any of these kites: >What is your maximum size of: No Kites are banned unless they are dangerous looking. There is no maximum size limit except when the flyer is no longer in control of the kite. >Do you permit: >Rok fighting? >Indian fighting? >Manja? Again, this hasn't come up yet. It will come up and I will have to figure this out. >Do you permit the use of: >Anchor stakes? >Vehicle anchors? >Andbag anchors? >Kevlar? Yes to all of these, although unattended kites, even if well anchored, are not allowed. >Do you mark off your arenas with metal stakes? The stunt kite areas are marked out with wooden stakes with yellow plastic "caution" tape between the stakes. >Are the rules different inside/outside arenas? No, dangerous flying is not permitted. If someone is flying in an area that is considered dangerous, they are asked to stop flying. In general, I try to make as few rules as possible. As required for AKA sanctioning, there is a designated safety officer whose responsibility is to make sure that things are happening in a safe manner. I talk things over with the safety officer and leave it up to his/her good judgement to spot unsafe behavior. She/he consults with me only when there is a question. For now this works just fine. I have confidence in the safety officer. I know that eventually this will get me in trouble, especially as the number of power kiting enthusiasts increases. Andrew has pointed out that tethered power kiting can be dangerous so this needs to be explored as well. Personally, I think power kiting is great and look forward to trying a few things out for myself. However, when acting as an organizer I don't feel that I can risk exposing myself to law suits. People are careless, and accidents do happen, and I don't want to be held accountable for someone else's actions. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 06:38:41 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: 'Independent' article on Jumping At the risk of boring people, I'll reply. ye79@gec-mrc.co.uk (ye79) writes: >I wasn't really considering an involuntary jump. > >I remember you writing in an earlier post (about flying six 10ft >Flexis on 45lb line) of how you jumped when a gust caught the kites in >order to stop the line from breaking. Hmmm... There are four main types of jump: 1) Very large kite produces more lift than flier's weight (flat ground) This is unusual because flier usualy slides first depowering the kite. This is usualy slow and relatively safe. 2) Thermal or ridge updraft lifts flier off the ground. I am the only person that I know of who has done this. Fortunately, I have only gone a few feet each time, but potentially is very dangerous. 3) Flier jumps up using kite for help or to reduce strain on lines in a gust. The added lift may allow the flier to jump further than would usualy be possible. Not particularly dangerous. 4) Flier braces against solid object, increasing pull, to be catapulted forward on release. A good method for reducing life expectancy. >>This is a major problem. 2 10' flexies is the most dangerous kite I >>have ever jumped with. >You can learn some very useful skills with two Flexis without being >overpowered most of the time. You don't need them for one Flexi but >you do need them for all really large kites. As I understand it, you >learned this way. I consider that I have been particulatly fortunate in not breaking any bones while flying 2 flexies. I am now getting the hang of handling very large power kites, but still find it difficult to transfer these skills to 2 10' flexies. >>Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The safest^H^H^H^H^H least >>dangerous stuff is *very* large (well in excess of 100 square feet). >>very few people get the chance to start at that end. >Would you let a beginner fly one of these kites? It always seems to me >that the first thing they do is put the kite into a power dive. They >then discover they can't pull out. Crash. That is if they don't get >pulled over and dragged about. It could put the victim off kiting for >life. Paradoxically, I *would* let a rank beginner fly a big Peel or a large stack of Flexies, providing that I was happy that they are fit enough to take a bit of rough and tumble, they are reasonably responsible (won't aim it at bystanders), that the wind isn't too strong and that I don't think that they are going to nick it. The big stuff is slow and requires large control movements - ideal for a beginner. I start them off by flying the thing together (sharing handles etc), get them to fly infinities at the top of the window. You tell them to slide rather than fight and let them pick it up from there. Rookies take it in their stride, it is only experienced fliers that are scared :-). >>Hmm.. yes. Serious Buggying is proving to be safer than serious cycling. >Perhaps this is because serious buggying takes place in reasonably >remote places whereas most cycling is on the road. This is a good point. I'll investigate further (but don't hold your breath). >>You've got to be fairly dumb to hurt a non-buggier. >Lets face it, some people are very dumb. Yes. This is the most difficult obstacle. >>1) Kite hits bystander. >> Most buggy kites are completely soft (peel/quad) and unlikely to do any >> serious damage. (Outlaw framed kites & flexies?) >Depends on the bystander, shock can kill. Not something that I considered. Is this a serious risk? Something that I skipped over was injury due to the bridle. I'll look at that further. >>6) Pilot falls out of buggy (perhaps while taking avoiding action), buggy >> hits bystander. >> Requires avoiding action by bystander. Buggy is low and easy to jump >> over (if bystander is able). >This is silly. I don't consider this to be silly. The problem is that a runaway (or tumbling) buggy is out of the pilot's control, is likely to have been lost at high speed, close to the bystander. The bystander must take avoiding action which may be difficult if the bystander is young, old, sitting down or not paying attention. The likelyhood of a pilot falling out of a buggy while taking an emergency action to avoid a bystander is not insignificant. >>7) Pilot flies line into bystander. (perhaps the most serious danger?) >> Pilot should release line before collision. Pilot should release line >> early if heading towards bystander without control. >You are asking a lot of the pilot. Hopefully a responsible one >wouldn't get themselves into these types of situation in the first >place. This is a very easy situation to get yourself into. It is easy to miss-judge whether a bystander is inside or outside your line length (a month ago, I did a ground pass with the kite 20 or thirty feet past a bystander that I thought was out of range). When you do a ground pass, the tendancy is to watch the position of the kite relative to the ground and not to look far enough ahead to see someone that the kite is about to fly into. Last year I did a power dive with the 6-stack in what I thought was an empty field. As I pulled out at the last moment, I noticed that the stack was coincedentaly aimed at a kid that had run out into the field to retrieve a soccerball (to any bystander it would have looked like a deliberate act to scare the kid). >>Can anyone suggest a senario where the bystander is likely to be injured >>by a responsible pilot? >Innocent bystander becomes entangled with/tries to catch kite line? "Entangled" with should be covered in 7 above. A bystander who "Tries to catch" is nolonger a bystander and is responsible for his actions. >What about the irresponsible pilot? They do exist you know. The irresponsible pilot will use kevlar lines with skill to kill people quickly and quietly. I don't any cure for irresponsible pilots, other than to persuade them to use a more conventional tool, such as a car. Andrew -- Work: gaffer@rec.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Car: +44 831 527 614 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =