Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 00:37:32 -1000 From: ash@hypercomm.com (Steve Peltier) Message-Id: <41j0dj$14d@lanfill.lanminds.com> Organization: LanMinds Networking Systems Subject: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? I was at a kite festival at the Berkeley Marina a few weeks ago, and the local kite shop (wisely) had a guy out allowing novices to test fly the Revolution 1.5. I tried, and did very well I'm told, for not having flown any type of kite before. I liked the experience alot and I have been thinking of buying a quad. Is there any reason for me to start with a dual and move up? Thanks. -Steve = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 19:10:04 -1000 From: kevin9@ix.netcom.com (Kevin Nitz) Message-Id: <41jlvc$3rc@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? In <41j0dj$14d@lanfill.lanminds.com> ash@hypercomm.com (Steve Peltier) writes: Is there any reason for me to >start with a dual and move up? > None whatsoever! I think someone who hasn't flown stunters before has an advantage over someone with experience when it comes to revs--you have nothing to unlearn! If you did well and enjoyed it, by all means go for it. Pick up a dual line later if you get interested. Later, Kevin kevin9@ix.netcom.com "In case of emergency, break something" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 05:43:43 -1000 From: travell@comics.enet.dec.com (I want to Go Fly a Kite!) Message-Id: <9508251443.AA27769@vbormc.vbo.dec.com> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: RE: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? > I have been thinking of buying a quad. Is there any reason for me to > start with a dual and move up? Do *NOT* do this, it will make it MUCH harder to learn Quad. Buy the Rev first, learn to fly it, THEN go for a Dual liner... Flying a Quad is all in the wrists, with relatively little arm movement. Flying a Dual is all in the arms, with relatively little wrist movement. (apart from what is in the head!...) I would definitely advise got for the Quad first... John Travell. Solent Kite Flyers is a Kite club based around Southampton, UK, Club fly-in's 2nd and 4th Sundays each month. Contact me by Email "travell@comics.enet.dec.com" for further info. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 05:32:55 -1000 From: John Ruggiero Message-Id: <41kqf7$72h@mail.techg.com> Organization: TechGnosis Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? kevin9@ix.netcom.com (Kevin Nitz) wrote: >In <41j0dj$14d@lanfill.lanminds.com> ash@hypercomm.com (Steve Peltier) >writes: > > Is there any reason for me to >>start with a dual and move up? >> >None whatsoever! I think someone who hasn't flown stunters before has >an advantage over someone with experience when it comes to revs--you >have nothing to unlearn! If you did well and enjoyed it, by all means >go for it. Pick up a dual line later if you get interested. > I have a friend (hi Jeff) that flew dual-line for about a year. Just before he gave up kite flying, he tried out some of my quad stuff. He went from a Quadrifoil 25 to a Synergy Deca UL, to a three stack of Rev IIs to a single Rev II in about two hours. You sound like a natural quad flyer, too ! Jeff and I decided that he was just Too Cool For Dual (TCFD). IMHO, the best way to learn quad is to follow a similar path to the more challenging quads as Jeff did. Borrow a Quadrifoil, Zip Zap, or other bag (small) to learn the basics. Then move on to a moderate speed quad like the Deca, then go on to the REV I or 1.5, then the REV II. You will be less frustrated in the long run. If you are in the Boston area, I would be happy to take you through these kites. See you in the air. - John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - John Ruggiero jruggiero@techg.com - - TechGnosis, Inc. - - Voice: 617-229-6100 Fax: 617-229-0557 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 07:38:40 -1000 From: jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <41l1r0$d2e@geog25.umd.edu> Organization: Project Glue, University of Maryland, College Park Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? In article <9508251443.AA27769@vbormc.vbo.dec.com>, I want to Go Fly a Kite! wrote: >> I have been thinking of buying a quad. Is there any reason for me to >> start with a dual and move up? > >Do *NOT* do this, it will make it MUCH harder to learn Quad. > >Buy the Rev first, learn to fly it, THEN go for a Dual liner... I definitely agree with this advice. Most folks seem to agree that the hardest aspect of learning to fly quad is unlearning dual-line primary control styles. Experience seems to bear this out -- I've had the most success in rapid learning teaching non-flyers to fly a rev than dual flyers. That said, well... >Flying a Quad is all in the wrists, with relatively little arm movement. >Flying a Dual is all in the arms, with relatively little wrist movement. >(apart from what is in the head!...) ...I definitely disagree with both statements here. 900f the quad flying I do involves arm movement -- often with extreme seperation of my hands. I can say with certainty that I could not fly a rev indoors with any control over the kite if my hands were tied together, and while I could fly a kite outdoors in such a way, I wouldn't have much fun. I do find it entertaining to fly a quad with one hand (both handles in one hand, not a custom handle such as Roger Maddy uses), but that's more the challenge of the coordination and the looks on other folks' faces than anything else. (how many people out there have good control over a quad with one hand -- I'll define good control with fairly standard rules -- > 5 minutes of flight, full turns to the left and right without loss of control?) For a general explanation of why this is the case, think of the rotation of the handles as giving you control over the kite's angle of attack when the kite is right-side up or upside down. What about when the kite is rotated 90 degrees? To effect control over the kite's angle of attack, you need to move your hands forward or back -- moving the top hand forward will cause the kite to rise, and vice versa. I'd be scared to death to let somebody try to do a tip stand on top of my head if their hands were tied together! (un)Fortunately, a Rev does not react like a dual line kite -- if you just move your hand forward or back expecting the kite to turn, it's going to fall out of the air. Virtually all arm movements with a Rev *must* be accompanied by some input to the bottom lines of the kite. And experienced dual line flyers simply have trouble remembering to coordinate these different things. dquad made something of a throwaway comment a couple of days ago in response to another poster, who had said, "It's all in the hands." Dave added, "And the feet," or something like that. Never forget how important your feet are to your control over a kite! That's not to say you can't spend a pleasant hour sitting down flying lazy loops with a stunter or engaged in a gentle game of follow the leader, but remember that there's no rule that says you have to stand in the same spot! ---- As for the comment about dual line flying being, "all in the arms, with relatively little wrist movement," well 2 or 3 years ago, I probably would have agreed with that. I find now, though, that my wrists are as likely to get sore from playing around with a radical delta as they are from flying a quad. Tricks that involve snap moves (stalls, axels, etc.) are usually carried out with a snapping of the wrist -- while this may be in conjunction with an arm movement, the point is that you can snap your hand around the wrist a lot faster than you can move your whole arm. Doing so also wastes a lot less energy. Granted, this is a different motion than the rotation one uses with a quad handle, but I've found the wrist to be *very* important to dual line flying. Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | Pithy, insightful quote to be inserted when one | |jburka@glue.umd.edu | occurs to me. *If* one occurs to me. | |http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jeffy/html/home.html | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 07:18:24 -1000 From: themax@icon.net (Jason Stotter) Message-Id: Organization: (ICON) InterConnect Online, Inc. Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? In article <41kqf7$72h@mail.techg.com> John Ruggiero writes: >From: John Ruggiero >Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? >Date: 25 Aug 1995 15:32:55 GMT >kevin9@ix.netcom.com (Kevin Nitz) wrote: >>In <41j0dj$14d@lanfill.lanminds.com> ash@hypercomm.com (Steve Peltier) >>writes: >> >> Is there any reason for me to >>>start with a dual and move up? >>> >>None whatsoever! I think someone who hasn't flown stunters before has >>an advantage over someone with experience when it comes to revs--you >>have nothing to unlearn! If you did well and enjoyed it, by all means >>go for it. Pick up a dual line later if you get interested. >> >I have a friend (hi Jeff) that flew dual-line for about a year. Just >before he gave up kite flying, he tried out some of my quad stuff. He >went from a Quadrifoil 25 to a Synergy Deca UL, to a three stack of Rev >IIs to a single Rev II in about two hours. You sound like a natural quad >flyer, too ! That's a great way to do it. I bought a Quadrifoil 15 to "get into" quads. I flew it for a few hours at an area kitefest. After an hour or so I had it down. Then I tried a RevII that belonged to a friend of mine. >Jeff and I decided that he was just Too Cool For Dual (TCFD). IMHO, the >best way to learn quad is to follow a similar path to the more >challenging quads as Jeff did. Borrow a Quadrifoil, Zip Zap, or other bag >(small) to learn the basics. Then move on to a moderate speed quad like >the Deca, then go on to the REV I or 1.5, then the REV II. You will be >less frustrated in the long run. I agree with this. It makes a big difference to start out with the Quadrifoil or the Zip Zap. Once you get the basics down with those, its not awfully difficult to progress to the faster quads. >If you are in the Boston area, I would be happy to take you through these >kites. See you in the air. >- John >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- John Ruggiero jruggiero@techg.com - >- TechGnosis, Inc. - >- Voice: 617-229-6100 Fax: 617-229-0557 - >------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________ Jason Max Stotter themax@icon.net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 02:09:54 -1000 From: cc@sics.se (Christer Carlsson) Message-Id: Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? Why start out with a slower quad? It will cost you a lot of $$$ (if you can't borrow them of course). I bought a Rev II a while ago and have logged maybe 15-20 hours with it. I'm not *good* at flying it (of course) but I can keep it in the air for as long as I want, do spins, tip stands, reverse flight, controlled landings and take offs etc. and I have a lot of fun! My only previous quad-experience is 10 min with a small Quadrifoil. Before that I have only flown two-liners. Be sure to get the instruction video that comes with most Rev models. Without it, I would have been quite lost! /Chris PS. Feel free to send me any questions you have. I can try to answer them >From a Rev-newbie perspective. -- _______________________________________________________________________________ Christer Carlsson | Email: cc@sics.se = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 23:12:00 -1000 From: Joachim_Wiechmann@ol2.maus.de (Joachim Wiechmann) Message-Id: <199508281112.a34584@ol2.maus.de> Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? Hi Jeffrey! JB> I've had the most JB> success in rapid learning teaching non-flyers to fly a rev than dual JB> flyers. So have I. A few weeks ago I showed someone how to fly my Rev II. He had just been trying to fly a simple dual-line stunter (with little success), so he had no problem unlearning anything. After ten minutes he could hold the rev in the air (I launched for him and gave him the handles). Ten more minutes, and he really had control over the movements of the kite, and after a short time he made soft landings and starts, even from upside-down position. Then he started to show it to his girl-friend. Meanwhile I went swimming in the sea. I couldn't bear watching what they would do with my kite. When I returned after a short period (the water was really cold that day), she was actually flying the kite! Well, her landings were harder (good ol' Rev-sticks!), but with some practice she surely would have managed that, too. When I started learning to fly a Rev some years ago, it took me days until it would really fly instead of rolling uncontrollable over the ground or digging holes into it. Okay, I had noone to show me. But watching these two people gaining full control in minutes was marvellous. When I entered the beach with my Rev, I felt like king of the kites, but this made me modest. :-) JB> (how many people out there have good control over a quad JB> with one hand -- I'll define good control with fairly standard rules -- > 5 JB> minutes of flight, full turns to the left and right without loss of JB> control?) I can keep the kite airborn for some time with one hand, but I have no real control about the direction it will turn to. Sometimes it will spin only to one side, so I have to take both hands again to unwrap the lines. How do you control the direction of the spins? Regards, Joachim --- Joachim Wiechmann Joachim_Wiechmann@OL2.maus.de Brooklandsweg 12a (no email > 16 kByte, please) 26203 Wardenburg Germany = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 05:38:27 -1000 From: jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <41vc9j$jqs@geog25.umd.edu> Organization: Project Glue, University of Maryland, College Park Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? In article <199508281112.a34584@ol2.maus.de>, Joachim Wiechmann wrote: >I can keep the kite airborn for some time with one hand, but I have no real >control about the direction it will turn to. Sometimes it will spin only to >one side, so I have to take both hands again to unwrap the lines. How do you >control the direction of the spins? You have to learn to be able to manipulate one of the handles -- the one to the outside -- with your fingers while basically keeping the other one still within your palm. Use the bottom fingers on your hand to push on the bottom of the outside handle to make it turn one way, and release all tension on the bottom of that same handle to make it turn the other way. Yes, it takes a lot of practice and a reasonable amount of coordination. I imagine it would be easier with big hands; mine are fairly small. This also works well with the Deca. Dunno 'bout the Symphony, and I wouldn't try it with a quad bag (well, maybe some of the smaller ones like the Quadrifoil 10 and 15 (and the new Junior) or the ZipZap, but I've not done it). Once you've got it down, you then have to work on your facial expression of nonchalance. ;-) (said expression is also nice for 3-d flying...you know, you'll be chatting with someone, and you'll suddenly catch your kite, all the while looking like nothing out of the ordinary has just happened.) Good luck... Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | Pithy, insightful quote to be inserted when one | |jburka@glue.umd.edu | occurs to me. *If* one occurs to me. | |http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jeffy/html/home.html | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:22:42 -1000 From: cwb@absun21.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Clark Battle) Message-Id: Organization: Platinum technology inc. Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? In article , themax@icon.net (Jason Stotter) writes: |> I agree with this. It makes a big difference to start out with the Quadrifoil |> or the Zip Zap. Once you get the basics down with those, its not awfully |> difficult to progress to the faster quads. |> The only problem with a quadrifoil is that to learn it you NEED consistent wind. Quadrifoils fold up in the air very easily if the wind changes direction and speed spontaneously. The sites I fly are almost always this way. I got so frustrated with the quadrifoil i sent it back. Without consistent conditions the kite would fold up and fall through its own lines, hopelessly tangling them. Constantly untangling four 75' lines after only 2-3 minutes of flight is not fun. Im no expert but unless you have a site with consistent conditions I would reccommend a kite that has some kind of framework over a quadrifoil for a beginner. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:08:13 -1000 From: othasuay@terranet.ab.ca (Frank Lee) Message-Id: <422jvt$1ing@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> Organization: I & I Services Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? >The only problem with a quadrifoil is that to learn it you NEED consistent wind. Quadrifoils fold up in the air very easily if the wind changes direction and speed spontaneously. Try using a Quad Trac 2 to teach 4-line operation. I have never (as yet) had it fold up easily and then tangle the lines. If the wind dies it deflates and gently falls to the ground. frank othasuay@terranet.ab.ca = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:03:06 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? cwb@absun21.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Clark Battle) writes: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please fix your email address >The only problem with a quadrifoil is that to learn it you NEED consistent >wind. Quadrifoils fold up in the air very easily if the wind changes >direction and speed spontaneously. The sites I fly are almost always this >way. I got so frustrated with the quadrifoil i sent it back. Without >consistent conditions the kite would fold up and fall through its own >lines, hopelessly tangling them. Sorry, this doesn't wash. Quads are easy to fly and to recover. It is trivial to stop them overflying. The bridle isn't complex enough top require more than a few moments to untangle. Try a little more practice on both counts - you're complaining about stuff that most fliers do without thinking about it... Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this->| Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome/index.html Leave the kite jumping to the teddy bears = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 05:08:51 -1000 From: cwb@platinum.com (Clark Battle) Message-Id: Organization: Platinum technology inc. Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? In article , andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: |> >The only problem with a quadrifoil is that to learn it you NEED consistent |> >wind. Quadrifoils fold up in the air very easily if the wind changes |> >direction and speed spontaneously. The sites I fly are almost always this |> >way. I got so frustrated with the quadrifoil i sent it back. Without |> >consistent conditions the kite would fold up and fall through its own |> >lines, hopelessly tangling them. |> |> Sorry, this doesn't wash. Quads are easy to fly and to recover. It is |> trivial to stop them overflying. The bridle isn't complex enough top require |> more than a few moments to untangle. |> |> Try a little more practice on both counts - you're complaining about stuff |> that most fliers do without thinking about it... A few moments! Maybe you are a bit more dexterous than I. It took me a half hour on average to untangle those lines only to have them retangled and actually knotted again within minutes! It was the *lines* that were knotted not the bridle. And I dont mean that they were twisted - I mean knotted in several places. After having untied 100ft quad lines 4-5 times on three separate occasions at different sites I gave up. Ive seen others fly them in more stable conditions successfully but they were experienced quad fliers. Give a quadrifoil to a novice to fly in conditions where the wind suddenly changes from 0 to 10 mph and gusts in from multiple directions at a site surrounded by 100ft tall trees producing nothing but eddies and you have a different animal. My point was not that the quadrifoil is hard to fly but that it is hard to *learn* without a site that can provide predictable wind speed and direction. Not everyone has the benefit of an oceanside beach to fly from. This is in contrast to a dual line delta. In the same site with the same conditions I have never had to even untwist the lines in order to launch. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 08:59:56 -1000 From: coreykite@aol.com (Coreykite) Message-Id: <42i6nd$8co@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Is a 'Revolution' too much for a beginner? RE: line problems... Sounds to me as if the equipment problems are flyer induced. The site sounds like a poor place to fly. Parrallel lines attached to the kite and the handles can NOT tangle. They can twist and if unwound improperly, can include twists in their length, but these are all flyer caused, not quadrifoil. aoxomoxoa coreykite@aol.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =