Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 11:57:31 -1000 From: nmiller@crl.com (Norman Miller) Message-Id: <2q95ob$kt7@crl.crl.com> Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [login: guest] Subject: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Somewhere I've seen plans for a device that uses a pulley wheel for walking down strong kites. Nothing else will do for the one I flew today. Suggestions keenly appreciated. Norman Miller = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 22:39:41 -1000 From: Simo.Salanne@bofnet.mailnet.fi Message-Id: <2DC8B0CD. AC001*_G=Simo_S=Salanne_UA-ID=000000001_PRMD=BOFNET_ADMD=MAILNET_C=FI_@ MHS> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: RE: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Norman Miller writes: > Somewhere I've seen plans for a device that uses a pulley wheel for > walking down strong kites. Nothing else will do for the one I flew > today. Suggestions keenly appreciated. > There were an extensive thread on walk down pulleys a year ago (?)... Try to find it from rec.kites archive. Shortly: buy a strong, much larger than your line reguires, pulley from a boat shop. They have models which can be opened/closed >From one side, i.e. you don't have to put your line through it _before_ launching. Some people (Anne and Patrick) reported problems when the wheel didn't roll and the line got melted to the nylon wheel! So buy a good one, with quality bearings. Smooth Landings Simo Salanne = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 05:23:07 -1000 From: pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. Meek) Message-Id: <2qb30r$cho@nigel.msen.com> Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562) Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Norman Miller (nmiller@crl.com) wrote: : Somewhere I've seen plans for a device that uses a pulley wheel for : walking down strong kites. Nothing else will do for the one I flew : today. Suggestions keenly appreciated. The device you are looking for is called a 'snatch block'. The side opens up so that it can be placed on a line which already has both ends fastened to something (kite and ground). They are common sailing hardware, but you will need to check carefully that the block you find does not have too much clearance between the sheave and cheek. These are usually made with thicker ropes in mind. Plans? Look at the commercial ones and see if you think you can make a stronger, cheaper version. Gloves, and hand-over-hand towards the kite will actually pull down harder than the snatch block, though. If you can't do it that way, the block will be worse. Either way, you are in a very dangerous place if the line snaps or the anchor comes loose. At least wear very heavy-duty safety glasses or goggles -- easier to live without an arm than without eyes. -- --Pete The best navigators are not always certain of where they are, but they are always aware of their uncertainty. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 01:42:34 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Simo.Salanne@bofnet.mailnet.fi wrote: : Norman Miller writes: : > Somewhere I've seen plans for a device that uses a pulley wheel for : > walking down strong kites. Nothing else will do for the one I flew : > today. Suggestions keenly appreciated. : > : Shortly: buy a strong, much larger than your line reguires, : pulley from a boat shop. They have models which can be opened/closed : from one side, i.e. you don't have to put your line through it : _before_ launching. Some people (Anne and Patrick) reported : problems when the wheel didn't roll and the line got melted to : the nylon wheel! So buy a good one, with quality bearings. My line walk-down device began as a rescue pulley from REI (US stores selling outdoor/camping equipment). The wheel is sized for ropes larger in diameter than most of us use for kiteflying (like climbing ropes); it's also nylon. The line cut a deep groove in the nylon wheel one day when the rok was pulling very very hard .... The nylon wheel has been replaced with a discarded aircraft cable all-metal wheel, with a narrow channel. Squeaks terribly, the wheel is oversized for the frame, sometimes the line jumps out, but it works. Anne -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | * * rock@netcom.com | * * Berkeley, CA | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 16:08:36 -1000 From: mark@murder.demon.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Message-Id: <768215316snx@murder.demon.co.uk> Organization: damage Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer In article <2qb30r$cho@nigel.msen.com> pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. Meek) writes: [ stuff deleted ] > Gloves, and hand-over-hand towards the kite will actually > pull down harder than the snatch block, though. If you > can't do it that way, the block will be worse. The problem I find with this is that the hand over hand method risks getting loops of line wrapped round your fingers/hands/feet, which is not at all a pleasant prospect. I remember one very dodgy moment when I was hauling in my 12ft delta in a stiff breeze using braided + waxed kevlar - the wax was just tacky enough to cause the line to catch on the leather of my gloves, and sure enough I managed to get it round my thumb when the wind dropped briefly, whereupon it picked up again, and I realised I didn't have my penknife to hand ! Managed to slip my hand from the glove, but it made me much more cautious. I've noticed this problem when I wasn't using waxed line too. I don't agree about the block being worse. The tension in the line has vertical ( lift ) and horizontal ( drag ) components. With a block, the user has simply to contend with the vertical component - the drag is taken by the fixed anchor upwind. With hand over hand, the user is handling both components , and thus has to exert a greater force. -- Mark de Roussier ************************************ A nice man is a man of nasty ideas. Jonathon Swift. ************************************ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 00:26:51 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Mark de Roussier (mark@murder.demon.co.uk) wrote: : In article <2qb30r$cho@nigel.msen.com> pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. : Meek) writes: : [ stuff deleted ] : > Gloves, and hand-over-hand towards the kite will actually : > pull down harder than the snatch block, though. If you : > can't do it that way, the block will be worse. : The problem I find with this is that the hand over hand method risks getting : loops of line wrapped round your fingers/hands/feet, which is not at all a : pleasant prospect. [stuff deleted] I interpret Pete's 'hand-over-hand' to mean walking the kite down with the pull-down device being one's hands rather than a piece of hardware. And there are times when I combine the two: one hand holding webbing that goes through a device, the other hand pulling the quite high-angle, hard- pulling kite line to a close-to-horizontal angle, then pulling the device forward a bit, and so on. One reason I often use a piece of hardware is that I'm walking down a camera rig, and I can slip an arm through the webbing loop, leaving both hands free to change film, etc. Another piece of climbing hardware that's a regular in my kite bag is a figure 8 descender (used for belaying and rappeling). After the line passes through the descender, the pull on the spool end of the kite line is *significantly* reduced, making control and smooth pay out of line much easier. Anne -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | * * rock@netcom.com | * * Berkeley, CA | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 05:08:49 -1000 From: BLACKBURN@PHYSICS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (Kenny Blackburn) Message-Id: Organization: University of Waterloo Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer What I've been using so far are very short dog leaches. I.e. strap handles with a clip on piece of hardware at the end instead of the regular piece of string (I also use a pair of these as handles for dual liners). There is no pulley so the line rubs against the (smooth) metal hook when I walk a line down. I haven't had any problems with this system yet but a pulley may be better! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kenny Blackburn Waterloo, Ontario or Trois-Rivieres, Quebec, Canada (519)-886-4068 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 05:57:46 -1000 From: pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. Meek) Message-Id: <2qgdpq$5hu@nigel.msen.com> Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562) Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Mark de Roussier (mark@murder.demon.co.uk) wrote: : In article <2qb30r$cho@nigel.msen.com> pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. Meek) writes: : [ stuff deleted ] : > Gloves, and hand-over-hand towards the kite will actually : > pull down harder than the snatch block, though. If you : > can't do it that way, the block will be worse. : The problem I find with this is that the hand over hand method risks getting : loops of line wrapped round your fingers/hands/feet, which is not at all a : pleasant prospect. I remember one very dodgy moment when I was hauling in my : I don't agree about the block being worse. The tension in the line has : vertical ( lift ) and horizontal ( drag ) components. With a block, the user : has simply to contend with the vertical component - the drag is taken by the : fixed anchor upwind. With hand over hand, the user is handling both components : , and thus has to exert a greater force. Ahhh, I see the misunderstanding. I meant hand-over-hand towards the kite, while the end of the line remains tethered. You reach ahead of you and pull the line down. The horizontal force remains on the tether/anchor. No line is left slack to get looped around extremeties (which I agree would be dangerous.) I have seen very large kites 'walked down' in relative safety. (No large kite is without its risks.) You have to tell yourself that you will let go if the pull begins to lift you from the ground; when it happens is too late to make that decision -- you will hang on just a little too long to let go safely. A snatch block can have a lanyard or pendant which will allow several people to lend their weight to the walk-down. This needs a single person in charge who makes the decision which all must follow instantly. The area must be kept clear of spectators; particularly, they must be kept away from the part of the line which is horizontal and under tension, and at risk of a sudden rise if the walk-down team must let go. This is not a very safe festival activity. It is for adults who can make their own safety decisions. -- --Pete The best navigators are not always certain of where they are, but they are always aware of their uncertainty. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 20:32:25 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Peter W. Meek (pwmeek@garnet.msen.com) wrote: : Anne Rock (rock@netcom.com) wrote: : : : One reason I often use a piece of hardware is that I'm walking down a : : camera rig, and I can slip an arm through the webbing loop, leaving both : : hands free to change film, etc. : I kind of hate to see that suggested; even though the kite you are : pulling down might not be able to lift you, even on its best day : or in the strongest wind, it could drag you if the wind shifted. I knew *someone* would be concerned about that (thanks for not disappointing me, Pete ;-) ... and it's a risk I've assessed and am comfortable with (and assess each time I do it). : [stuff deleted] If there are other kites around, another kite could : become entangled with your kite and suddenly increase the pull with : very little warning. These days it's rare that I fly my camera rig near another kite .... without making sure the other flyer(s) is aware of my rig and willing to give me quite a bit of space. :If you have pulled the kite low enough to : retrieve a payload, maybe you could ground it and put a foot on : the leading edge. Quibbling over my specific use .... the payload is usually 50-150' below the kite ....Happily, my new camera rig weighs significantly less than the one which provided most of the experiences I'm thinking about as I write this, and I should be flying with smaller kites most of the time. Anne -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | The sign at the fork in the road pointed * * rock@netcom.com | to Hell and to Burnout, and both paths * * Berkeley, CA | were paved with good intentions. * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 18:19:20 -1000 From: pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. Meek) Message-Id: <2qhp89$t1d@nigel.msen.com> Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562) Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Anne Rock (rock@netcom.com) wrote: : One reason I often use a piece of hardware is that I'm walking down a : camera rig, and I can slip an arm through the webbing loop, leaving both : hands free to change film, etc. I kind of hate to see that suggested; even though the kite you are pulling down might not be able to lift you, even on its best day or in the strongest wind, it could drag you if the wind shifted. I'm not a big fan of having *anything* attached to the kite going around any part of you. (Speaking of kites over a couple of square feet, that is.) If there are other kites around, another kite could become entangled with your kite and suddenly increase the pull with very little warning. If you have pulled the kite low enough to retrieve a payload, maybe you could ground it and put a foot on the leading edge. Some recent dialog with Andrew B. has me concerned with the perceptions people have about what kinds of precautions are needed when handling hard-pulling kites. -- --Pete The best navigators are not always certain of where they are, but they are always aware of their uncertainty. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 20:21:02 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Mark de Roussier (mark@murder.demon.co.uk) wrote: : In article rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) writes: : > Mark de Roussier (mark@murder.demon.co.uk) wrote: : > : In article <2qb30r$cho@nigel.msen.com> pwmeek@garnet.msen.com (Peter W. : > : Meek) writes: : > : [ stuff deleted ] : > : > Gloves, and hand-over-hand towards the kite will actually : > : > pull down harder than the snatch block, though. If you : > : > can't do it that way, the block will be worse. : > : > : The problem I find with this is that the hand over hand method risks getting : > : loops of line wrapped round your fingers/hands/feet, which is not at all a : > : pleasant prospect. [stuff deleted] : > : > I interpret Pete's 'hand-over-hand' to mean walking the kite down with the : > pull-down device being one's hands rather than a piece of hardware. : > : ISWYM. I hadn't picked up on that. But I think I'll stick by my concerns : vis a vis entanglement. I still think a block is likely to be safer. I share your concerns about entanglement, as I have also pulled off a glove as the line became tangled around it while pulling a kite in ... someone has suggested that the smooth leather of my gloves is 'stickier' than suede gloves, but I haven't bought a pair. : I *think* I'm starting to understand my problem with the forces now. I don't : have it completely clear yet, but I could well believe that there is no : difference between what you have to do with a block vs what you would do just : hauling in. One reason I sometimes walk a kite down is the simple one that I'm not strong enough to pull it in. Anne -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | The sign at the fork in the road pointed * * rock@netcom.com | to Hell and to Burnout, and both paths * * Berkeley, CA | were paved with good intentions. * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 20:26:46 -1000 From: chris@engineer.mrg.uswest.com (Chris Fedde) Message-Id: <2qcnv6$o5u@engineer.mrg.uswest.com> Organization: USWEST Marketing Resources Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer In article <2DC8B0CD.AC001*_G=Simo_S=Salanne_UA-ID=000000001_PRMD=BOFNET_ADMD=MAILNET_C=FI_@mhs>, wrote: > >Shortly: buy a strong, much larger than your line reguires, >pulley from a boat shop. They have models which can be opened/closed >from one side, i.e. you don't have to put your line through it >_before_ launching. Some people (Anne and Patrick) reported >problems when the wheel didn't roll and the line got melted to >the nylon wheel! So buy a good one, with quality bearings. > Maybe I'm missing something here but I've used a rock climbing carabener for this for some time. I'm not even sure what advantage a wheel would have in this kind of situation. JMHO chris = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 01:54:20 -1000 From: Simo.Salanne@bofnet.mailnet.fi Message-Id: <2DCF75EC. 97601*_G=Simo_S=Salanne_UA-ID=000000001_PRMD=BOFNET_ADMD=MAILNET_C=FI_@ MHS> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Chris writes: > > Maybe I'm missing something here but I've used a rock climbing carabener > for this for some time. I'm not even sure what advantage a wheel > would have in this kind of situation. > Less friction -> less wear of the line & less power from the walk-downer. When you are close to your limits, avoiding the friction can make a difference; you either get the kite down or not. Smooth Landings Simo Salanne = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 01:24:38 -1000 From: andrewh@qmw.ac.uk (Andrew Hawken) Message-Id: <2qnqtm$am@beta.qmw.ac.uk> Organization: Elec. Eng. QMW Uni. of London Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer Just to add my .02 UK pounds worth.... There has been mention of safety in this thread,- if the system breaks then the flyer may be hit hard. I think that the main danger here is going to be if you introduce any elasticity into the walker downer, i.e. in the rope you attach to hang onto the pulley. It strikes me (no pun intended) that when getting the rest of the equipment from a climbing shop, dont get a length of climbing rope for this job. Climbing rope is designed to be elastic. Use an inelastic web or something similar. If there is no elasticity in the downward acting part of the system (impossisble :-( ) the the worst that can happen is bits of pulley shoot into the air, and the rest falls onto your head. --- ____________________________Andrew Hawken______________________________ "However many ways there may be of being alive, it is certain that there are vastly more ways of being dead" R Dawkins. Home : 0895 420110 QMW : 071 975 5542 AIIT : 0494 677045 Email : A.Hawken@QMW.AC.UK = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 06:20:50 -1000 From: mgraves@leadingedg.win.net (Michael Graves) Message-Id: <400@leadingedg.win.net> Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer In article <2qcnv6$o5u@engineer.mrg.uswest.com>, Chris Fedde (chris@engineer.mrg.uswest.com) writes: >Maybe I'm missing something here but I've used a rock climbing carabener >for this for some time. I'm not even sure what advantage a wheel >would have in this kind of situation. I use a carbiner(sp?) as well, but it has a down side. Repeated use of a carbiner on Dacron line can abrade it. OTOH, using a carbiner on kevlar line abrades the finish from the carbiner! Michael Graves = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 09:39:10 -1000 From: chris@engineer.mrg.uswest.com (Chris Fedde) Message-Id: <2qonsu$kbt@engineer.mrg.uswest.com> Organization: USWEST Marketing Resources Subject: Re: Needed: a kite-walker-downer In article <2qnqtm$am@beta.qmw.ac.uk>, Andrew Hawken wrote: >Just to add my .02 UK pounds worth.... > >It strikes me (no pun intended) that >when getting the rest of the equipment from a climbing shop, dont get a >length of climbing rope for this job. Climbing rope is designed to be elastic. >Use an inelastic web or something similar. If there is no elasticity in the >downward acting part of the system (impossisble :-( ) the the worst that can >happen is bits of pulley shoot into the air, and the rest falls onto your head. As it happens the elasticity of climbing rope is not going to be of much advantage in the lengths we're talking about. A 150 foot kernmantel rope will streach about 10 feet in a HARD fall. Normal bouncyness is about 6 inches for every 10 feet deploied. While I'm not an expert with flying large kites I suspect that the downward component of a kite walkdown system is less than 10 feet long. Better schemes for managing safty might use some kind of "deadman switch" such as is used by some power-kiters. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 10:04:30 -1000 From: Frank Kenisky Message-Id: Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Subject: RE: Needed: a kite-walker-downer writes: >Norman Miller writes: >> Somewhere I've seen plans for a device that uses a pulley wheel for >> walking down strong kites. Nothing else will do for the one I flew >> today. Suggestions keenly appreciated. as a kite maker myself I have made a variety of kites. Especially large ones I must admit that although the kites i have made in the past have been what i would consider large they may not be so big to you. A few years ago i built a ginki wing which was over 16 ft across. I used 300lb test line and that was usually singing. trying to pull the thing down caused all kinds of line burns, so i developed a simple line hook. Using a flag hoist clip, I fastened it to a stunt kite strap, padded are nice, when ever i need to bring down my kite i just hook on to the line and walk down. I don't usually fly more than 300ft so the heat generated from the pull is not enough to melt the line. It's usually a good idea to take a few breaks while walking your kite down. Frank Kenisky South West Sport Kite Conference = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =