Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:22:15 -1000 From: nick@swrcc.demon.co.uk (Nick Boyce) Message-Id: <496235436wnr@swrcc.demon.co.uk> Organization: South Western Regional Health Authority Subject: Proposals For An International Fliers Federation *** PLEASE READ THIS FIRST ------. | V I'm posting this for my brother Jeremy Boyce, who hasn't bought a modem yet but I'm working on it. Please excuse the awful ascii art which is down to me (I couldn't resist the opportunity for my first creation - don't ask me what it is, it's a Sky Bat or some such). The rest of it is all Jeremy's own work . . . Ideally, please address any responses to Jeremy direct by snail mail at the address given at the end for the time being. However, I read this group so I'll direct any posted responses to him, but * PLEASE DON'T EMAIL ME ABOUT IT * My employer may get upset if large volumes of private email arrive, - this is their Internet account. Thanks, Nick Boyce +----------------------- Here begins the stuff ---------------------+ _.===._ _./ ~ " ~ \._ / " \ / " \ / " \ / \ .#== To All Competitive Sport Kite Fliers ==#. / \ ./ " \. / \ #=== Proposals For An International Fliers Federation ===# ./ | O | \. / | | \ .~ _ _ | _ _ " _ _ | _ _ ~. | _ -- ~ ~--__ " __--~ ~ -- __ | | ./ ~-. " .-~ \. | | / \ " / \ | | \ " / | \./ Now that all the World and European Cup excitement has had time to die down, and we're looking towards the beginning of another (European) Sport Kite season, it seems an appropriate time to let you know what has happened so far. There has been a good deal of dialogue and a lot of head-scratching by an unremarkably small number of people as we try to determine whether fliers care enough to support an I.F.F and have the will to make it work. The countries where we know there is some interest are : Belgium, Germany, France, Finland, Netherlands, Italy, Switzerland and Britain. That covers all the European countries represented at the World and European (?) Cups so, as far as Europe is concerned at least, it appears there is enough interest to begin to make an I.F.F. work - now it's down to us to make it effective. An I.F.F. will get the support of individuals / pairs / teams and will have the will to work so long as its membership is resolute and it addresses the issues of main concern to competitive fliers. It is very clear that fliers want an effective lobby / pressure group - indeed, it seems to be at the top of a large number of grievance lists that there is no real representation of *competitive* fliers on the rule- making and organising bodies presently controlling the competitive structure. In order to work, an I.F.F. must restrict its membership to satisfy the needs of fliers presently active in competition and must exclude those who are not presently active ("active" = in a recognised National or International championship in the preceding 12 months). In common with a number of other sports, competitors feel there is a greater need for organisers to work *with* competitors to plan and coordinate the development of a coherent sport package, not just the odd competition event here and there. Paradoxically as ever, we will only be able to address these broader issues if we can begin to resolve the specific points emerging from discussion so far. Here's the top 5 of these points (in no specific order) :- 1 Compilation of and amendments to the internationally recognised rulebook : these are mainly imposed rather than resulting from open discussion with those with front end experience. Too many rule makers not close enough to contemporary competition flying techniques. 2 Inadequate monitoring of competition organisers, resulting in competitions in totally inappropriate locations (i.e. in car parks, half way up mountains, etc.). 3 Inadequate facilities on site for competition or practice. No space for practice (Berkeley, Vienna), arena too small or in a place causing excessive turbulence (Le Touquet car park). Insufficient or misleading advance information for fliers about site layout, dimensions and conditions. 4 Too much room for interpretation within the current rule book leading to inconsistency in interpretation and application of the rules. 5 Insufficient opportunities to have a dialogue with the judges, leading to an us v them atmosphere. What about post-competition debriefing ? Surely the competition is between competitors, not a contest between judges and competitors ? A further much-asked question relates to the much-talked-about but noone's-ever-seen-it "official" recognition for kite flying as a sport. What the **** has been going on for the last eight years ? Putting forward an entirely personal view, I would like to make a couple of other points / proposals : 1 if an I.F.F. is to work it needs to have a simple structure with little or no paperwork responsibility for the few people it should take to coordinate. Membership should not require form-filling; eligibility should be enough to constitute membership - non-active = non-member. 2 A fliers Federation must work alongside / with the existing S.T.A.C.K. or equivalent structure and with organisers, not against them. We all want more opportunities to do our stuff. This is one of the most exciting and entertaining sports happening but we are not yet getting our message across effectively. To do so, we need people in control who can see the "big picture" rather than the various small ones that seem to be presently in view. That's it. Now you know as much as anyone else, so please lets get organised and see what we can achieve in a year. These are just the starting ideas and, like the I.F.F. itself, the rest is up to you. Let's hear from you soon : you can contact me at I.F.F., 153 STOKE NEWINGTON CHURCH STREET, LONDON N16 0UH, UK Best wishes, Jeremy Boyce AIRKRAFT +----------------------- Here ends the stuff ---------------------+ -- +---------------------------------------------------------------+ |Nick Boyce : nick@swrcc.demon.co.uk | The bus came by | |SWRHA Computer Centre, Bristol, UK | and I got on ... | | << PGP mail accepted and preferred >> | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 14:39:22 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <199502210039.AA05588@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation I found Jeremy (Nick) Boyce's lengthy posing on the political challenges facing competitive kiting quite interesting. I should stress at the outset, that I sympathize with many of his concerns. But before we go much further, I think it's necessary to define some parameters. When we Americans hear the word "international" we tend to think "worldwide". I have learned over time, that many Europeans use "international" to simply mean "more than one country". So before we start to seriously discuss an "International" Fliers Federation, we need to know whether the intent is really worldwide, or simply European. Jeremy's post, for example, list all the countries that have expressed interest. And so far, they are ALL European. What about us here in the states? What about Japan?? The central premise of the article was that there is "no real representation of competitive fliers on rulemaking and organizing bodies". But here in the USA, that clearly isn't true. The AKA Sport Kite Committee has nine members (not counting STACK and AJSKA liaisons). They include Bob Childs, Abel Ortega, Sue Taft, Mike Simmons, and Darrin Skinner. These are well-known, COMPETITIVE FLIERS, not organizers or judges. So I guess my question is, where is the problem? Are we talking about STACK, or Wold Cup or what? What is it we are trying to fix?? Jeremy asks what we are doing to try hand have our sport "officially" recognized. Well AKA has sent proposals to STACK and AJSKA to form an International Sport Kite federation -- a federation of organizations, not fliers - which will qualify for recognition by the International Olympic Committee. We are also making application to the US Olympic Committee and encourage other national groups to do the same. We're still waiting for some response from STACKS executive meeting last weekend, and expect it will be positive. One element will be the formation of a truly international sport kite rules body. So -- sorry to respond in such length, but these issues are complex and ambiguous. Let's hear what other people think. DISCLAIMER - I'm a "has been" AKA president who has worked on this stuff but no longer has a vote. I now chair the AKA International Committee and am in charge of the Olympic proposal. I'm also on the Sport Kite Committee. -- David Gomberg/Cascade Kites phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 Call us for competitive prices on BIG "show" kites. Flowforms, Giant Spinsocks, and the complete Peter Lynn catalog. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 00:09:11 -1000 From: john.mitchell@multinet.de (john) Message-Id: <199502211009.AA02517@BlackBird.MultiNET.DE> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation David Gomberg writes: > When we Americans hear the word "international" we tend to think > "worldwide". I have learned over time, that many Europeans use > "international" to simply mean "more than one country". So before > we start to seriously discuss an "International" Fliers Federation, > we need to know whether the intent is really worldwide, or simply > European. The following was extracted from the American Heritage Dictonary: international (in ter na tion al) adj. Of, relating to or involving two or more nations or nationalities. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:44:59 -1000 From: Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) Message-Id: <9502212244.AA04694@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Proposals For An International Fliers Federation -] Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:22:15 +0000 -] From: nick@swrcc.demon.co.uk (Nick Boyce) -] Subject: Proposals For An International Fliers Federation -] -] *** PLEASE READ THIS FIRST ------. -] | -] V -] -] I'm posting this for my brother Jeremy Boyce, who hasn't bought a -] modem yet but I'm working on it. -] -] Thanks, Nick Boyce thanks Nick for passing this along... -] -] .#== To All Competitive Sport Kite Fliers ==#. -] #=== Proposals For An International Fliers Federation ===# -] -] There has been a good deal of dialogue and a lot of head-scratching by -] an unremarkably small number of people as we try to determine whether -] fliers care enough to support an I.F.F and have the will to make it -] work. The countries where we know there is some interest are : -] Belgium, Germany, France, Finland, Netherlands, Italy, Switzerland and -] Britain. That covers all the European countries represented at the -] World and European (?) Cups so, as far as Europe is concerned at -] least, it appears there is enough interest to begin to make an I.F.F. -] work - now it's down to us to make it effective. (After having read this entire posting...) I'm not really sure what IFF will do -- what its purpose will be. I recognize the problems mentioned (later) in this post and agree that they need to be fixed, but the overall question I have is: HOW does the existance of IFF help to fix these problems and WHAT is the solution being proposed by IFF for these problems. I realize that the WHAT question may be premature. I.e. you may need to get IFF going and then decide WHAT the members WANT the solution to be. This would be reasonable, but as the organizer a general guideline of direction would help people understand what your proposing. -] An I.F.F. will get the support of individuals / pairs / teams and will -] have the will to work so long as its membership is resolute and it -] addresses the issues of main concern to competitive fliers. It is very -] clear that fliers want an effective lobby / pressure group - indeed, -] it seems to be at the top of a large number of grievance lists that -] there is no real representation of *competitive* fliers on the rule- -] making and organising bodies presently controlling the competitive -] structure. regarding rule making see my comment below... regarding organizing bodies... my 2 cents worth... if fliers want representation they need to volunteer to help the organizer setup and plan the event. This is the only time the flier can influence the way the event is run. By the day of the event, it's too late to give suggestions. If IFF could develop a support group to help preplan and organize an event, that would be a way to influence the organizer to IFF's goals (which you mention in the next paragraph :-) ). -] In order to work, an I.F.F. must restrict its membership to -] satisfy the needs of fliers presently active in competition and must -] exclude those who are not presently active ("active" = in a recognised -] National or International championship in the preceding 12 months). In Your going to lose alot of experienced and valuable people by limiting membership to only active competitors. -] common with a number of other sports, competitors feel there is a -] greater need for organisers to work *with* competitors to plan and -] coordinate the development of a coherent sport package, not just the -] odd competition event here and there. Paradoxically as ever, we will -] only be able to address these broader issues if we can begin to -] resolve the specific points emerging from discussion so far. -] -] Here's the top 5 of these points (in no specific order) :- -] -] 1 Compilation of and amendments to the internationally recognised -] rulebook : these are mainly imposed rather than resulting from -] open discussion with those with front end experience. Too many -] rule makers not close enough to contemporary competition flying -] techniques. Are we talking about the STACK/AKA/AJSKA rule book here? If so, to say that the rules are imposed with no open discussion... is ludicous. If that was the case rule decisions would only take 5 minutes to make, not a years worth of proposals, discussion, and voting. It sounds like you only want active competitors to make rules decisions. Just because someone has experience does not make them useless. :-) The current rules committee is made of up current/contemporary international competitors *and* former competitors with years of experience. -] 2 Inadequate monitoring of competition organisers, resulting in -] competitions in totally inappropriate locations (i.e. in car -] parks, half way up mountains, etc.). As a flier, it would be nice to have notification about these sort of conditions prior to the competition. In what way would the IFF "monitor" this and how would that make a difference? I.e., what if an event moves their field to a sandy lot on top of a 4 meter sea wall and IFF knows about it in advance. What will IFF do? Also, what if the field is moved *after* the event starts and IFF does not know in advance. What will IFF do? -] 3 Inadequate facilities on site for competition or practice. No -] space for practice (Berkeley, Vienna), arena too small or in a -] place causing excessive turbulence (Le Touquet car park). -] Insufficient or misleading advance information for fliers about -] site layout, dimensions and conditions. I agree that these are all problems. What does IFF propose to do about these problems. Keep in mind that sometimes the choice is between having an event at a less than perfect site verse have *no* event at all. While it may be true that an event requires perfect conditions to have a perfect competition, all that is required for a fair and equitable competition is equal conditions for all competitors. I.e. if everyone is flying in the same "less than perfect conditions", everyone has the same chance to win. -] -] 4 Too much room for interpretation within the current rule book -] leading to inconsistency in interpretation and application of -] the rules. (Once again) assuming your talking about the STACK/AKA/AJSKA rule book... How does the formation of IFF address this problem? Whats wrong with working to change the rule book by address these issues within STACK/AKA/AJSKA? Or would you be proposing a STACK/AKA/AJSKA/IFF rule book or, perhaps, an IFF only rule book? -] -] 5 Insufficient opportunities to have a dialogue with the judges, -] leading to an us v them atmosphere. What about post-competition -] debriefing ? Surely the competition is between competitors, -] not a contest between judges and competitors ? I've heard of some events that have a post-competition debriefing with the fliers and judges. I've heard many fliers really benefited from this. I think this is an excellent idea. But, comming back to the topic of IFF, how does IFF help solve the problem? -] A further much-asked question relates to the much-talked-about but -] noone's-ever-seen-it "official" recognition for kite flying as a -] sport. What the **** has been going on for the last eight years ? There are a number of organizations and people working on this. My understanding is that it is a very slow process. Personally, I can't wait to see this happen -- I'd love to fly at the first kite olympics (before I die of old age). -] -] -] Putting forward an entirely personal view, I would like to make a -] couple of other points / proposals : -] -] 1 if an I.F.F. is to work it needs to have a simple structure -] with little or no paperwork responsibility for the few people -] it should take to coordinate. Membership should not require -] form-filling; eligibility should be enough to constitute -] membership - non-active = non-member. You lose the experience factor when "membership - non-active = non-member". -] 2 A fliers Federation must work alongside / with the existing -] S.T.A.C.K. or equivalent structure and with organisers, not -] against them. We all want more opportunities to do our stuff. -] This is one of the most exciting and entertaining sports -] happening but we are not yet getting our message across -] effectively. To do so, we need people in control who can see -] the "big picture" rather than the various small ones that seem -] to be presently in view. -] Throughout my reply is a common thread of WHAT will IFF do. I guess part of the reason for this is really WHY is IFF forming? (Please remember I'm an American here and not privy to all the European insider info.. ok?) Doesn't STACK represent the fliers well enough? Here in the states I would think that an American Fliers Federation would be redundant with the AKA. This is obviously not the IFF feeling regarding STACK. My question would be why not expand STACK to handle these problems. Instead of creating a new organization, why not build on an existing one. There are certain advantages with this approach. Of course there are disadvantages too, and maybe these disadvantages are part of the reason for the IFF. -] -] That's it. Now you know as much as anyone else, so please lets get -] organised and see what we can achieve in a year. These are just the -] starting ideas and, like the I.F.F. itself, the rest is up to you. -] Let's hear from you soon : you can contact me at -] -] I.F.F., 153 STOKE NEWINGTON CHURCH STREET, LONDON N16 0UH, UK -] -] -] Best wishes, -] -] Jeremy Boyce -] AIRKRAFT -] Darrin Skinner Tsunami '94 Air Art '88-'93 BASKL AKA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:08:46 -1000 From: Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3idh8e$7do@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In <199502210039.AA05588@ednet1.osl.or.gov> dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >I found Jeremy (Nick) Boyce's lengthy posing on the political >challenges facing competitive kiting quite interesting. I should >stress at the outset, that I sympathize with many of his concerns. >But before we go much further, I think it's necessary to define some >parameters. I'm not sure he wants sympthy. Action speaks louder than words. >Jeremy's post, for example, list all the countries that have >expressed interest. And so far, they are ALL European. What >about us here in the states? What about Japan?? Maybe Mr.Boyce has read the "AKA's International Sport Kite Rules Books" and feels that there are too many questions or too much ambiguity. For instance in the introduction it states in the fourth paragraph: The consistency that the publication makes possible is not intended to limite unique events or to stifle originality, expression and experimentation. This update adds a great degree of flexibility to the rules process while striving to provide predictability for competitors. Not only does it offer alternatives for conducting competitions, it also encourages event coordinators to continue to experiment and innovate -- as long as they inform competitors or rule changes in advance. This seems to have two different meanings. Any individual who has attended events which change, say field size and use this paragraph or even the paragraph under section II. Organizer's Responsibilities A. Rules and Maneuvers 1. Rules, it states: These notice requirement do not apply to on-site rule adjustments made in response to wind conditions or *OTHER* unpredictable event conditions. This paragraph reads as a opening for event organizers to change however they see fit. Then what happends if an event doesn't follow these rules? Is there someting in place to police the events? Seems like Mr.Boyce has the right idea. >The central premise of the article was that there is "no >real representation of competitive fliers on rulemaking >and organizing bodies". But here in the USA, that clearly >isn't true. Unless something has changed over the past week, which I seriously doubt, there is no real representation of competitive fliers on rulemaking and organizing bodies. This is a fact. >So I guess my question is, where is the problem? Are we talking >about STACK, or Wold Cup or what? What is it we are trying to >fix?? The rules. Simple. I haven't had an opportunity to read Mr.Boyce's post but from the twist in this post and the points raised it is very obvious what Mr.Boyce was trying to say. >Jeremy asks what we are doing to try hand have our sport >"officially" recognized. Well AKA has sent proposals to STACK >and AJSKA to form an International Sport Kite federation -- >a federation of organizations, not fliers - which will qualify >for recognition by the International Olympic Committee. We are also >making application to the US Olympic Committee and encourage >other national groups to do the same. This is confusing. I think whoever wrote this should try again. >So -- sorry to respond in such length, but these issues are >complex and ambiguous. Let's hear what other people think. I think the issues are complex and ambiguous as long as you make them that way. DISCLAIMER - I am *NOT* a member of the AKA. It's rules and ranking system are meant to serve only a few. I really wish this guy would stop using rec.kites to advertise. >David Gomberg Mr.Nasty = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:56:46 -1000 From: dkyte@aol.com (Dkyte) Message-Id: <3idr3e$a7e@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In response to Jeremy Boyce, Dave Gomberg writes: >So I guess my question is, where is the problem? Are we talking >about STACK, or Wold Cup or what? What is it we are trying to >fix?? I think the problem is that Air Kraft did not win the World Cup. Gosh, isn't that catty? I also think that if Frank (Mr. Nasty) agrees with Jeremy, Jeremy must be wrong. ===================================== Joe Schiros aka Dr Kyte If the enemy is within range, so are you. ===================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:59:18 -1000 From: johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) Message-Id: Organization: Tethered Airfoil R&D Pty. Ltd. (C)(R)(TM) CD CASS Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In article <199502211009.AA02517@BlackBird.MultiNET.DE>, john wrote: > >David Gomberg writes: > >> When we Americans hear the word "international" we tend to think >> "worldwide". I have learned over time, that many Europeans use >> "international" to simply mean "more than one country". So before >> we start to seriously discuss an "International" Fliers Federation, >> we need to know whether the intent is really worldwide, or simply >> European. > >The following was extracted from the American Heritage Dictonary: > >international (in ter na tion al) adj. Of, relating to or involving two >or more nations or nationalities. Should we 'globalize' the AKA (American Kiteflyer's Association) by a massive renaming to WKA (World Kiteflyer's Association) ? That way everyone can be assured a piece of the pie rather than just a few insular regional shucksters. I'm sure the WKA (Washington Kiteflyer's Association) will be more than happy to sublet our initials for such a worthy cause (for a substantial fee). -- "Kittenoids From Mongo Landed In My WC Tank And Abducted Forty-Two Cherries" Warns Susan Hutcheson -- Brian Johnsen johnsen@eskimo.com Seattle, Washington USA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:05:09 -1000 From: girbo@aol.com (Girbo) Message-Id: <3idv3l$b5c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation Frank Kenisky writes: > Unless something has changed over the past week, which I seriously > doubt, there is no real representation of competitive fliers on > rulemaking and organizing bodies. This is a fact. For clarification, the members of the AKA Sport Kite Committee are as follows: Sherrie & Dave Arnold* (chairs) Bob Childs Abel Ortega* Mike Simmons* Eric Forsberg Sue Taft Bert Tanaka* Darrin Skinner* David Gomberg All those with asterisks are active competitors. Bob Childs only recently retired from competitive flying. Eric Forsberg is one of the most active judges in the country. Sue Taft was a long-time competitor, is now an active judge, and is one of those who helped define the sport as it is today. Any AKA member wishing to make comments or suggestions about the rule book should contact any one of the above committee members or your regional director. Postings made on rec.kites will also be noted. Sherrie Arnold AKA Sport Kite Committee = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 05:14:19 -1000 From: Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3ifkcb$6sm@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In <3idr3e$a7e@newsbf02.news.aol.com> dkyte@aol.com (Dkyte) writes: >I also think that if Frank (Mr. Nasty) agrees with Jeremy, Jeremy must be >wrong. What to know why I am so nasty? Responses like this, piss me off. Idiots who have nothing more to say than this is indicative of the current thinking within the AKA. I'm sorry but you can have it. Dr.Kyte, what a joke. Talk about a egotistical shmuck. Who bestowed the you with that title. Another group of grinning idiots in a hase of THC. Mr.Nasty to you. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 05:32:43 -1000 From: Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3ifler$7cq@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In <3idv3l$b5c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> girbo@aol.com (Girbo) writes: >Frank Kenisky writes: >> Unless something has changed over the past week, which I seriously >> doubt, there is no real representation of competitive fliers on >> rulemaking and organizing bodies. This is a fact. > >For clarification, the members of the AKA Sport Kite Committee are as >follows: > Sherrie & Dave Arnold* (chairs) Bob Childs > Abel Ortega* Mike Simmons* > Eric Forsberg Sue Taft > Bert Tanaka* Darrin >Skinner* > David Gomberg > >All those with asterisks are active competitors. Bob Childs only recently >retired from competitive flying. Eric Forsberg is one of the most active >judges in the country. Sue Taft was a long-time competitor, is now an >active judge, and is one of those who helped define the sport as it is >today. > >Any AKA member wishing to make comments or suggestions about the rule book >should contact any one of the above committee members or your regional >director. Postings made on rec.kites will also be noted. Thank you Sherri. Also, thank you and a number of other who expressed concern by sending your Dave Brittin to have a talk with me about my attitude. I think I am now a changed man. Just teasing. Point if an individual wishes to make comments or suggestions about the rule book what effect would it have? how will it be considered? And why when I submitted requests some of those same individuals on the board never saw what I submitted? Just wondering. Does the board have a file 13 in which one individual reads the suggestion and then after thinking it over feels it does not justify consideration then throws it out before the rest of the board can read it. I realize there can be some outragious and very ridiculous demands on the board for consideration but what of the ones which may need additional clairification? And does your response here constitute that of an official member of the AKA and chair of the sport kite committee? In other words can you be held to your response? Mr.Nasty = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 05:09:49 -1000 From: Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3ifk3t$6pr@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Proposals For An International Fliers Federation In <9502212244.AA04694@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) writes: >I'm not really sure what IFF will do -- what its purpose will be. I recognize >the problems mentioned (later) in this post and agree that they need to be >fixed, but the overall question I have is: HOW does the existance of IFF help >to fix these problems and WHAT is the solution being proposed by IFF for these >problems. I realize that the WHAT question may be premature. I.e. you may need >to get IFF going and then decide WHAT the members WANT the solution to be. This >would be reasonable, but as the organizer a general guideline of direction would >help people understand what your proposing. May this statement is the problem. In short you have addressed several points in one paragraph without any point. If Mr.Boyce and a contingent of individuals feel that there is a need to create a new system then instead of the implied anxiety attacks of the AKA, why don't you all give them your support? There are problems, you and the AKA agree, so why aren't these problems addressed and why don't they get worked out? Because there are individuals on the Sport Kite Committee who have not read the "Rules" book. How can an individual who has not read the book be on the committee? Maybe another group can get together and create changes which can be implemented or incorporated into the AKA's rules. Don't begin by attacking their purpose by questioning their motives. Of all the people who are so busy, I wonder why you even have the time to address this issue. >-] An I.F.F. will get the support of individuals / pairs / teams and will >-] have the will to work so long as its membership is resolute and it >-] addresses the issues of main concern to competitive fliers. It is very >-] clear that fliers want an effective lobby / pressure group - indeed, >-] it seems to be at the top of a large number of grievance lists that >-] there is no real representation of *competitive* fliers on the rule- >-] making and organising bodies presently controlling the competitive >-] structure. > >regarding rule making see my comment below... > >regarding organizing bodies... my 2 cents worth... if fliers want representation >they need to volunteer to help the organizer setup and plan the event. This is >the only time the flier can influence the way the event is run. By the day of the >event, it's too late to give suggestions. If IFF could develop a support group >to help preplan and organize an event, that would be a way to influence the >organizer to IFF's goals (which you mention in the next paragraph :-) ). It appears that is just what he is trying to say. Why the need to be redundant? >-] In order to work, an I.F.F. must restrict its membership to >-] satisfy the needs of fliers presently active in competition and must >-] exclude those who are not presently active ("active" = in a recognised >-] National or International championship in the preceding 12 months). In > >Your going to lose alot of experienced and valuable people by limiting >membership to only active competitors. Hummm. This is an interesting comment coming from you. I mean you utilize the AKA's ranking system which is "UNFAIR", (as pointed out by a number of AKA officers in previous posts) maybe they are learing from what they see. >-] 1 Compilation of and amendments to the internationally recognised >-] rulebook : these are mainly imposed rather than resulting from >-] open discussion with those with front end experience. Too many >-] rule makers not close enough to contemporary competition flying >-] techniques. >Are we talking about the STACK/AKA/AJSKA rule book here? If so, to say >that the rules are imposed with no open discussion... is ludicous. If >that was the case rule decisions would only take 5 minutes to make, not >a years worth of proposals, discussion, and voting. You and David are being a little defensive here don't you think? They may be refering to the rules which are arbitrarly [sp] changed on the field of competition to suite the climate or personality at the event. I think their statement says a lot. I think your response missed their point. There are too many instances where at AKA sanctioned events, changes or rule calls are made which are inconsistant with the established printed rules. It seems they are saying, as the olympic committes position on rules, follow the rules you print. >It sounds like you only want active competitors to make rules decisions. >Just because someone has experience does not make them useless. :-) The >current rules committee is made of up current/contemporary international >competitors *and* former competitors with years of experience. I think you give all the members on that committee too much credit. >-] 2 Inadequate monitoring of competition organisers, resulting in >-] competitions in totally inappropriate locations (i.e. in car >-] parks, half way up mountains, etc.). >As a flier, it would be nice to have notification about these sort of >conditions prior to the competition. In what way would the IFF "monitor" >this and how would that make a difference? I.e., what if an event moves >their field to a sandy lot on top of a 4 meter sea wall and IFF knows >about it in advance. What will IFF do? Also, what if the field is >moved *after* the event starts and IFF does not know in advance. What >will IFF do? I must agree with them on this point. I remember managing an event which had one of the member of the "Sport Kite Committee" and an AKA Regional Director on hand, when the event organizer decided to change the size of the competition field to 2/3rds the size required by the AKA Sanctioning Rules. Although there was no logic to this decision, the member of the "Sport Kite Committee" and the AKA Regional Director, agreed with the event organizer to make changes to an on going competition. I don't think the experience here helped the event conform to the rules. This event is included in the AKA Conference Ranking. I personally felt that this events scores should have been pulled and the responsiblity placed on the event organizer. It is specifically printed in the rules book that that is the event organizers responsibilty. If a contestant in an AKA sanctioned event violates the rules they are disqualified, their points are not included. Why then can an event in some cases request AKA sanctinoning, after flagarant violations, and get approved by this experienced body? Maybe Mr.Boyce has a point. >-] Insufficient or misleading advance information for fliers about >-] site layout, dimensions and conditions. >I agree that these are all problems. What does IFF propose to do about >these problems. Keep in mind that sometimes the choice is between having >an event at a less than perfect site verse have *no* event at all. You agree. Excuse me but you are placating this effort. STOP! Don't question their efforts provide assistance. You are in a position to do that, but instead you question their effort. That's what the AKA is going to do? >While it may be true that an event requires perfect conditions to have a >perfect competition, all that is required for a fair and equitable competition >is equal conditions for all competitors. I.e. if everyone is flying in the >same "less than perfect conditions", everyone has the same chance to win. I beg to differ with you. But it is becoming clear that you also need a refresher on the rules from the book which your organization prints. Under the heading II. Organizers Responsibilies, B. Mandatory Flying Field Requirements For Sanctioned Events, 4. Minimum Competition Field Size. I won't print the entire rule here, but if you need a current rules book you can call Wind Wizards in Lenexa, KS at (913) 894-5483, I know they have a few. No where in this section does it state your point above. I personally think this make up the rules as you go along mentatily is not in my opinion a group of experience. (Just my opinion, and we all know the cliche about opinions.) >-] 4 Too much room for interpretation within the current rule book >-] leading to inconsistency in interpretation and application of >-] the rules. > >(Once again) assuming your talking about the STACK/AKA/AJSKA rule book... >How does the formation of IFF address this problem? Whats wrong with working >to change the rule book by address these issues within STACK/AKA/AJSKA? Or >would you be proposing a STACK/AKA/AJSKA/IFF rule book or, perhaps, an IFF >only rule book? Because this point has probably been addressed more than once. I know for a fact that I sent in a request to change the rules not to include the beginning statement in the introduction on paragraph 4 of the rules book to include that ambigious statement. The committee then 3 years ago choose not to make that change. >-] 5 Insufficient opportunities to have a dialogue with the judges, >-] leading to an us v them atmosphere. What about post-competition >-] debriefing ? Surely the competition is between competitors, >-] not a contest between judges and competitors ? >I've heard of some events that have a post-competition debriefing with the >fliers and judges. I've heard many fliers really benefited from this. I >think this is an excellent idea. But, comming back to the topic of IFF, how >does IFF help solve the problem? STOP asking the same dumb question. Are you auditioning by the net to get into the sequel "Dumb and Dumber II"? Stop asking this question. >-] A further much-asked question relates to the much-talked-about but >-] noone's-ever-seen-it "official" recognition for kite flying as a >-] sport. What the **** has been going on for the last eight years ? > >There are a number of organizations and people working on this. My understanding >is that it is a very slow process. Personally, I can't wait to see this >happen -- I'd love to fly at the first kite olympics (before I die of old age). Bingo!!! The AKA was asked to consider the change in the By-Laws but *REFUSED* to do so. This would make the AKA make event conform to the rules it prints. How can the AKA sanction these events which it ranks contestants to an annual competition and not officially recognize it as a sport in the by-laws? By doing this the AKA can change the rules and not be responsible. >-] 1 if an I.F.F. is to work it needs to have a simple structure >-] with little or no paperwork responsibility for the few people >-] it should take to coordinate. Membership should not require >-] form-filling; eligibility should be enough to constitute >-] membership - non-active = non-member. >You lose the experience factor when "membership - non-active = non-member". I think you missed the point again. >-] 2 A fliers Federation must work alongside / with the existing >-] S.T.A.C.K. or equivalent structure and with organisers, not >-] against them. We all want more opportunities to do our stuff. >-] This is one of the most exciting and entertaining sports >-] happening but we are not yet getting our message across >-] effectively. To do so, we need people in control who can see >-] the "big picture" rather than the various small ones that seem >-] to be presently in view. >Throughout my reply is a common thread of WHAT will IFF do. I guess part >of the reason for this is really WHY is IFF forming? (Please remember >I'm an American here and not privy to all the European insider info.. ok?) >Doesn't STACK represent the fliers well enough? Here in the states I would >think that an American Fliers Federation would be redundant with the AKA. >This is obviously not the IFF feeling regarding STACK. My question would be >why not expand STACK to handle these problems. Instead of creating a new >organization, why not build on an existing one. There are certain advantages >with this approach. Of course there are disadvantages too, and maybe these >disadvantages are part of the reason for the IFF. It may seem redundant but it is possible. As far as building on the existing one, well you know my feelings, the current system is in dire need of change, >From the top down. Many have expressed this concern and the AKA uses the same excuse as it prints in the rules book. Make up the rules as you go along. The AKA needs to consider the changes which affect the contestants as well as the responsibilitys it suggests to the event organizers. It needs to consider the impact of what it is doing regarding the sport. There are not several million sport kite contestants throughout the world, an organization which would split >From the current organization will not help the cohiesiveness of kiting. Although I am not an AKA member I would like to become one, but not under the current environment. Mr.Nasty = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:18:28 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <199502222018.AA18388@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation I met a nasty fellow once, who was quite adept at pointing out other people's mistakes - or at least his perception of mistakes. Trouble is, that he had a GREAT DEAL of trouble acknowledging his own errors. For example, he once wrote "...there is no real representation of competitive fliers on rulemaking and organizing bodies. This is a fact." But when the chair of the committee told him specifically who was on the committee, including well known competitors like Darrin Skinner and Abel Ortega, he made fun of her, and then changed the subject. Kinda calls into question most of his other assertions, doesn't it? -- David Gomberg/Cascade Kites phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 Call us for competitive prices on BIG "show" kites. Flowforms, Giant Spinsocks, and the complete Peter Lynn catalog. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:02:08 -1000 From: hayden1009@aol.com (Hayden1009) Message-Id: <3igc90$p6l@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation john.mitchell@multinet.de (john) says: >The following was extracted from the American Heritage Dictonary: > international (in ter na tion al) adj. Of, relating to or involving two > or more nations or nationalities. So, again, what is meant by "international" when Nick/Jeremy uses it. Do they EEC International, or globally international? Alice Hayden 8^) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:01:58 -1000 From: dkyte@aol.com (Dkyte) Message-Id: <3igfp6$q1g@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation Mr Nasty writes: >What to know why I am so nasty? No. >Idiots who have nothing more to say than this is indicative of the current >thinking within the AKA. I'm sorry but you can have it. My idiotic opinions are my own and not those of the AKA > Dr.Kyte, what a joke. Precisely, I am not surprised you did not get it. > Talk about a egotistical shmuck. Thank you, coming from you that is a compliment. > Who bestowed the you with that title. Me. ===================================== Joe Schiros aka Dr Kyte Put a little fun in your life, try dancing. - Arthur Murray ===================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:53:05 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Proposals For An International Fliers Federation In article johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) writes: > Should we 'globalize' the AKA (American Kiteflyer's Association) by a >massive renaming to WKA (World Kiteflyer's Association) ? I see three ways to make a global kite organisation: 1) Make the AKA more international. It already has a foothold in most countries. A change of name (but it would be nice to keep the AKA initials...) would help. 2) Form an alliance between the established national groups. This should be at a "board" level, between the groups. 3) Start it from scratch, *right*here*. This is already the most international kite organisation... it just lacks err... organisation. When you are trying to organise things on a global scale, it kinda helps to use a medium where distance is no object. In fact, I think that the best would be a combination of all three, the AKA pulling together all the different national groups, and getting them to nominate an official presence on the net. They could use a mailing list for private discussions and be able to discuss things with the international community easily. I don't know how much this would affect the local goings on at festivals and stuff, but it would give us a global body from which to tackle outside agencies like Aviation authorities, Olympic committies, and other things where we need a lot of clout. The year is 1995. I think it's time to bring kite organisation up to date. Andrew -- /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ o /\ Kite Jumping: Read the Kite FAQ's: ftp.hawaii.edu:/pub/rec/kites/faq |_ \/ If you want For sale: Prototype Keelless Rowlands Flowform. US$80 (_\ to fly, use a Kite Fliers Site: http://www.kfs.org/kites andrew@tug.com Hangglider = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:14:34 -1000 From: mgraves@leadingedg.win.net (Michael Graves) Message-Id: <1667@leadingedg.win.net> Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In article , Brian Johnsen (johnsen@eskimo.com) writes: > Should we 'globalize' the AKA (American Kiteflyer's Association) by a >massive renaming to WKA (World Kiteflyer's Association) ? > > That way everyone can be assured a piece of the pie rather than just a >few insular regional shucksters. That only changes the location of the "shucksters". The AKA has long been unsure of itself in this area. Does that first A mean American, as in US of A, or American, as in all of the Americas? As a Canadian, and the AKA liaison for Canada I am sensitive to this issue. Renaming the AKA is definitely not the answer, repositioning it may hold part of the answer. It would be VERY easy for the AKA to offend and alienate the rest of the world by proclaiming itself almighty. I recall some raised eyebrows when the kite museum in Washington was called the "World Kite Musuem", as if it were the only one. Michael Graves = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:07:01 -1000 From: girbo@aol.com (Girbo) Message-Id: <3igjj5$qu7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation Frank Kenisky writes: > Thank you Sherri. Also, thank you and a number of other who > expressed concern by sending your Dave Brittin to have a talk with > me about my attitude. I think I am now a changed man. >Just teasing. If you're thanking me for listing the Sport Kite Committee members, you're welcome. If Dave Brittain was on a mission, the objective was unknown to me, and I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the instance you speak of. > Point if an individual wishes to make comments or suggestions about > the rule book what effect would it have? how will it be considered? > And why when I submitted requests some of those same individuals on > the board never saw what I submitted? Just wondering. All comments and suggestions regarding the Rules Book will be debated by the members of the committee and subsequently voted on. Any changes approved by this committee will be incorporated into the next edition of the rulee book or issued as a group of amendments, preferably before the start of the 1995-96 season. > Does the board have a file 13 in which one individual reads the suggestion and > then after thinking it over feels it does not justify consideration then throws > it out before the rest of the board can read it. I can't take responsibility or claim complete knowledge of what's happened in the past, but I assure you such a 'file 13' does not exist for the 1995 committee. > And does your response here constitute that of an official member of the > AKA and chair of the sport kite committee? > In other words can you be held to your response? Yes, my response was that of the AKA Sport Kite Committee Chair and can be held accountable as such. I participate in rec.kite threads in many ways (AKA member, AKA director, event organizer, Eastern League commissioner, and personally), but I always try sign my name with the 'hat' I am wearing at the time so readers understand from where I am speaking. Sincerely, Sherrie Arnold AKA SPort Kite Committee Chair = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 07:03:31 -1000 From: Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3iif53$89a@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In <199502222018.AA18388@ednet1.osl.or.gov> dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >I met a nasty fellow once, who was quite adept at pointing out >other people's mistakes - or at least his perception of mistakes. >Trouble is, that he had a GREAT DEAL of trouble acknowledging >his own errors. I feel this post indicates your stuipid shallow narrow mind. Either that or you were looking in a mirror. >For example, he once wrote "...there is no real representation of >competitive fliers on rulemaking and organizing bodies. This is a >fact." The point, which seemed to go right over your pointed head is that in the past, which is all anyone can go on, (you know track record) is that you can have all the best names on a list on a committee, but if the committee is ineffective, (which it has been in the past, hence forth the concern from the IFF) how about adding a few more names like, Tipper Gore, and Hillary, or even Tanya Harding, she lives near you doesn't she David. I addressed and made a point. Besides the one on your stuipid head, what is yours? >But when the chair of the committee told him specifically who >was on the committee, including well known competitors like >Darrin Skinner and Abel Ortega, he made fun of her, and then >changed the subject. Do not use your own inadequate image to reflect on me. >Kinda calls into question most of his other assertions, doesn't it? Go ahead give it your best shot. I can get as adhoc as you. Change the subject and attack me personally. Gets the job done, don't you think? Seems that's how you may get a lot accomplished. I take it you are the spokes person for the Sport Kite Committee? If not shut up! BTW - your sig, it's tacky. Your Best friend Mr.Nasty = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 07:20:33 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <3iig51$c8u@pobox.csc.fi> Organization: STACK Finland Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation I have two seen two followups to two other followsups, which I haven't seen and I haven't seen the starting message either! Do we have problems in mailing list / news gateway? Simo -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi STACK Finland ==================================================================== Are you familiar with Kite Flyers web Site? http://www.kfs.org/kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 07:41:10 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <3iihbm$cud@pobox.csc.fi> Organization: STACK Finland Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation David Gomberg writes: > When we Americans hear the word "international" we tend to think > "worldwide". I have learned over time, that many Europeans use > "international" to simply mean "more than one country". So before > we start to seriously discuss an "International" Fliers Federation, > we need to know whether the intent is really worldwide, or simply > European. John Mithell writes: >The following was extracted from the American Heritage Dictonary: > >international (in ter na tion al) adj. Of, relating to or involving two >or more nations or nationalities. In <3idv3l$b5c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> girbo@aol.com (Girbo) writes: >For clarification, the members of the AKA Sport Kite Committee are as >follows: > Sherrie & Dave Arnold* (chairs) Bob Childs > Abel Ortega* Mike Simmons* > Eric Forsberg Sue Taft > Bert Tanaka* Darrin >Skinner* > David Gomberg >All those with asterisks are active competitors. Bob Childs only recently >retired from competitive flying. Eric Forsberg is one of the most active >judges in the country. Sue Taft was a long-time competitor, is now an >active judge, and is one of those who helped define the sport as it is >today. >Any AKA member wishing to make comments or suggestions about the rule book >should contact any one of the above committee members or your regional >director. Postings made on rec.kites will also be noted. By David's definition AKA Sport Kite Committee is not international at all. I don't say it should, but IFF tries to improve cooperation "internationally". I have followed actively rec.kites for three years, but I cannot identify that rec.kites postings had some effect to the Rule Book 3rd Edition. If things has changed, it's most wellcome that "international" flyers are noted via rec.kites, if they cannot do it via national organisations (like STACK Finland!). Simo -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi STACK Finland ==================================================================== Are you familiar with Kite Flyers web Site? http://www.kfs.org/kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:27:38 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <199502242027.AA15368@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation Simo asked about the "international" nature of the AKA Sport Kite Committee. The members listed by Sherrie are the ones appointed by AKA. In addition, AKA has invited STACK and AJSKA to appoint liaisons who also serve as voting members of the committee. STACK has suggested that we form a truly international committee made of equal members from AKA and STACK. AKA is agreeable, but replied that AJSKA should also be included. The STACK Board met to discuss this on February 18, but we (AKA) haven't heard any reply yet. I have previously reported that AKA has proposed the formation of an International Sport Kite Federation (representing member *organizations*) and not to be confused with the International Fliers Federation (which represents individual member and sounds, technically, like more of an "association" than a "federation"). The ISKF would cooperate on rules AND other issues like competition and judging. This Federation is another issue that STACK is discussing. Disclaimer: I'm providing this information as chair of the AKA International committee. -- David Gomberg/Cascade Kites phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 Specializing in BIG "show" kites Peter Lynn Inflatibles, Giant Flowforms, Spinsocks, and Imports = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 13:43:16 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <3ilquk$av5@pobox.csc.fi> Organization: STACK Finland Subject: Re: Proposals For An International Fliers Federation In <9502212244.AA04694@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) writes: >Whats wrong with working to change the rule book by address >these issues within STACK/AKA/AJSKA? - STACK executive / Rules & Regulations comittee doesn't work WITH * (replace the "*" with worlds like "members", "AKA", "flyers",...) - AKA seems to be more responsive. - How do we work with AJSKA, can you publish their contacts? Simo -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi STACK Finland ==================================================================== Are you familiar with Kite Flyers web Site? http://www.kfs.org/kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 04:40:31 -1000 From: Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3iso8v$8kc@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In <3iihbm$cud@pobox.csc.fi> salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) writes: >By David's definition AKA Sport Kite Committee is not international >at all. I don't say it should, but IFF tries to improve cooperation >"internationally". > >I have followed actively rec.kites for three years, but I cannot >identify that rec.kites postings had some effect to the Rule Book >3rd Edition. If things has changed, it's most wellcome >that "international" flyers are noted via rec.kites, if they >cannot do it via national organisations (like STACK Finland!). I have read this three times and if it is saying what I think it is, which is to allow IFF the opportunity to exist and change or effect rules to improve cooperations "internationally" then this is a good idea. For IFF has the chance to make these changes and take the risk. If they are sucessful then this may be the creation of what the sport needed all along and the sport kite population can split from the ineffective AKA. Frank ======================================================================== SIG: I am not an AKA member, nor do I recommend to anyone to join such a group which utilizes a ranking/qualifying system to suit it's own needs. ======================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:57:25 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <3is0l5$i6i@pobox.csc.fi> Organization: STACK Finland Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation In <3igjj5$qu7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> girbo@aol.com (Girbo) writes: >All comments and suggestions regarding the Rules Book will be debated by >the members of the committee and subsequently voted on. Any changes >approved by this committee will be incorporated into the next edition of >the rulee book or issued as a group of amendments, preferably before the >start of the 1995-96 season. I suppose that will produce "AKA rule book", how it will gain "International" status? Simo -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi STACK Finland ==================================================================== Are you familiar with Kite Flyers web Site? http://www.kfs.org/kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 12:15:07 -1000 From: girbo@aol.com (Girbo) Message-Id: <3ititb$cub@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Proposals for an International Fliers Federation Simo referred to my post of: >>All comments and suggestions regarding the Rules Book will be debated by >>the members of the committee and subsequently voted on. Any changes >>approved by this committee will be incorporated into the next edition of >>the rulee book or issued as a group of amendments, preferably before the >>start of the 1995-96 season. and pondered: > I suppose that will produce "AKA rule book", how it will > gain "International" status? I specifically left out references to international procedures since we are presently trying to get this worked out into a smoother process. As soon as AKA, STACK, and AJSKA have worked out the details, it will be posted. My posting was in response to Frank's query, so I limited my comments to the U.S. portion of the committee. Sorry if I caused any misconceptions. The Rules Book is definitely of an international nature and will require the input of all interested parties for change. Sherrie Arnold AKA Sport Kite Committee = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =