Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:24:55 -1000 From: albert@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl (Albert Mietus) Message-Id: <86ag57ksag.fsf@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl> Organization: We aren't! Should we, then it's SW, Education and Advice. Subject: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Hallo kiters al around the world, I very hard try to follow the rec.kites newgroup (and more ..) but reading one (complete) night per week isn't the way I wanted it. Currently there are to many ariticles, I think. Between Nov 14 and Dec 5 there are 600 (!!) articles posted. We hardly can blame the posters, there are a lot of questions to be ask, a lot of stories to be told etc etc. Therefore I suggest to split rec.kites into a number of groups: rec.kites.announce -- Anouncement of festivals, etc No discusions rec.kites.plans -- discusion about plans (and its kites) rec.kites.picture -- Nice pictures, unselect for low volume ! rec.kites.stories -- About the person behind the line rec.kites.making -- discusions about the best way to make a kite rec.kites.buggies -- About buggies, bugging etc rec.kites.4line -- discusions between the 4 liners rec.kites.2line -- discusions between the 2 liners rec.kites.1line -- discusions between the 1 liners rec.kites.discuss -- "endless" discussions started in rec.kites.* rec.kiters.misc -- All other Maybe some others, some not .... Please react (follow-up), is there any "formal" way to add groups in the rec.* hierachie?? P.S. Whenever the number of messages isn't more managable, I have to stop reading rec.kites otherwise I only read about them, I want to fly! ---GAM albert@gamp.hacom.nl "This should be a jolly quote" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:59:03 -1000 From: mielse@euronet.nl (Emiel Stroeve) Message-Id: <4a3f03$33h@news.euro.net> Organization: Euronet Internet Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie albert@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl (Albert Mietus) wrote: >Hallo kiters al around the world, > I very hard try to follow the rec.kites newgroup (and more ..) but >reading one (complete) night per week isn't the way I wanted it. >Currently there are to many ariticles, I think. >Between Nov 14 and Dec 5 there are 600 (!!) articles posted. >We hardly can blame the posters, there are a lot of questions to be >ask, a lot of stories to be told etc etc. >Therefore I suggest to split rec.kites into a number of groups: > rec.kites.announce -- Anouncement of festivals, etc No discusions > rec.kites.plans -- discusion about plans (and its kites) > rec.kites.picture -- Nice pictures, unselect for low volume ! > rec.kites.stories -- About the person behind the line > rec.kites.making -- discusions about the best way to make a kite > rec.kites.buggies -- About buggies, bugging etc > rec.kites.4line -- discusions between the 4 liners > rec.kites.2line -- discusions between the 2 liners > rec.kites.1line -- discusions between the 1 liners > rec.kites.discuss -- "endless" discussions started in rec.kites.* > rec.kiters.misc -- All other >Maybe some others, some not .... Albert, I think this is the wrong way to go. The nicest thing of r.k is that the subjects are very different. When there are lots of subgroups people start crossposting and you'll end up with even more articles. see you, emiel = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:36:02 -1000 From: bernhard.malle@dbag.ulm.DaimlerBenz.COM (Bernhard Malle) Message-Id: <9512061136.AA11687@dagobert.dbag.ulm.DaimlerBenz.COM> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie > We hardly can blame the posters, there are a lot of questions to be > ask, a lot of stories to be told etc etc. > > Therefore I suggest to split rec.kites into a number of groups: > rec.kites.announce -- Anouncement of festivals, etc No discusions > rec.kites.plans -- discusion about plans (and its kites) > rec.kites.picture -- Nice pictures, unselect for low volume ! > rec.kites.stories -- About the person behind the line > rec.kites.making -- discusions about the best way to make a kite > rec.kites.buggies -- About buggies, bugging etc > rec.kites.4line -- discusions between the 4 liners > rec.kites.2line -- discusions between the 2 liners > rec.kites.1line -- discusions between the 1 liners > rec.kites.discuss -- "endless" discussions started in rec.kites.* > rec.kiters.misc -- All other And here we go again and add some more (useless?) articles to the 600 per month... This discussion has been held at least three times I think in the past three years. Instead of thinking hard to invent new articles, please just copy from the rec.kites archive and post to /dev/null :-)) And yes, we have also discussed whether we should more clearly identify the subject lines. (The following is not meant personally, I am just not interested in the thread): I have tried to cope with the large number of articles by introducing kill-files and very often kill simply because of the subject line without reading the article. Current example is the judging thread and the sewing machine thread. Bernhard -- +--------------------------------------------+--------------------+ | Bernhard Malle Tel: +49 7305 22203 priv. | Go fly a gecko !! | | Ulm, Germany Fax: +49 731 505-4210 +--------------------+ | email: Bernhard.Malle@dbag.ulm.daimlerbenz.com | | WWW: http://derwin.wlu.ca/bm/bernhard.htm | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:38:57 -1000 From: steveth@mindnet.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: <4a3h25$db0@shellx.best.com> Organization: NetMind Media Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie On Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:24:55 GMT, albert@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl (Albert Mietus) wrote: >Hallo kiters al around the world, > > I very hard try to follow the rec.kites newgroup (and more ..) but >reading one (complete) night per week isn't the way I wanted it. >Currently there are to many ariticles, I think. > >Between Nov 14 and Dec 5 there are 600 (!!) articles posted. > >We hardly can blame the posters, there are a lot of questions to be >ask, a lot of stories to be told etc etc. > >Therefore I suggest to split rec.kites into a number of groups: > rec.kites.announce -- Anouncement of festivals, etc No discusions > rec.kites.plans -- discusion about plans (and its kites) > rec.kites.picture -- Nice pictures, unselect for low volume ! > rec.kites.stories -- About the person behind the line > rec.kites.making -- discusions about the best way to make a kite > rec.kites.buggies -- About buggies, bugging etc > rec.kites.4line -- discusions between the 4 liners > rec.kites.2line -- discusions between the 2 liners > rec.kites.1line -- discusions between the 1 liners > rec.kites.discuss -- "endless" discussions started in rec.kites.* > rec.kiters.misc -- All other > This is too many to start with. How about: rec.kites.multiline rec.kites.singleline rec.kites.building (or "making", or "craft", or whatever) This should get us started. I agree, though, r.k is too crowded and needs to be split up... ____________ Steve Thomas steveth@mindnet.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:53:12 -1000 From: Richard Bettis Message-Id: <75129480wnr@fats.demon.co.uk> Organization: Health & Safety Lab Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie In article: <86ag57ksag.fsf@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl> albert@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl (Albert Mietus) writes: > I very hard try to follow the rec.kites newgroup (and more ..) but > reading one (complete) night per week isn't the way I wanted it. > Currently there are to many ariticles, I think. > > Between Nov 14 and Dec 5 there are 600 (!!) articles posted. > My (multi-user) machine subscribes to a variety of groups. These include rec.arts.anime.marketplace (454) rec.kites (452) sci.chem (693) rec.music.beatles (2943) (Yes, nearly three THOUSAND postings!) the numbers are the unexpired messages in each group as I write. The last two have shorter expiry times. Even before the current burst of 90's Beatlemania r.m.b had ~300 postings *per day* ! rec.kites is *not* a busy group... rec.kites also has short postings by and large. (I discount the kite-jumpers and their jumping jpg's - responsibility isn't expected in all quarters!) This makes it relatively economic to download. > We hardly can blame the posters, there are a lot of questions to be > ask, a lot of stories to be told etc etc. > > Therefore I suggest to split rec.kites into a number of groups: > Maybe some others, some not .... rec.kites.split.no.no.no ? rec.kites.cross-posted.to.all.the.subgroups ? rec.kites.speed.reading ? rec.kites.only.read.the.message.if.you.like.the.header ? rec.kites.did.you.see.*this*.in.rec.kites.obscure.sub-group.repost ? > Please react (follow-up), is there any "formal" way to add groups in > the rec.* hierachie?? > Yes. See the news.groups faq(s) (If there is a CFV on this, I for one, will be voting against a split...) Can someone add a 'why splitting rec.kites is not a Good Thing at present' section in the FAQ? -- +=============================================================================+ | Richard Bettis | "I make no warranty with respect to this | | | statement and disclaim any implied/explicit | | | suggestions of usefulness for any purpose" | +=============================================================================+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:12:58 -1000 From: cfbd@southern.co.nz (Colin Douthwaite) Message-Id: <4a5f2q$37d@orm.southern.co.nz> Organization: Southern InterNet Services Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Albert Mietus (albert@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl) wrote: : Hallo kiters al around the world, : : I very hard try to follow the rec.kites newgroup (and more ..) but : reading one (complete) night per week isn't the way I wanted it. : Currently there are to many ariticles, I think. : : Between Nov 14 and Dec 5 there are 600 (!!) articles posted. : : We hardly can blame the posters, there are a lot of questions to be : ask, a lot of stories to be told etc etc. : : Therefore I suggest to split rec.kites into a number of groups: : rec.kites.announce -- Anouncement of festivals, etc No discusions : rec.kites.plans -- discusion about plans (and its kites) : rec.kites.picture -- Nice pictures, unselect for low volume ! : rec.kites.stories -- About the person behind the line : rec.kites.making -- discusions about the best way to make a kite : rec.kites.buggies -- About buggies, bugging etc : rec.kites.4line -- discusions between the 4 liners : rec.kites.2line -- discusions between the 2 liners : rec.kites.1line -- discusions between the 1 liners : rec.kites.discuss -- "endless" discussions started in rec.kites.* : rec.kiters.misc -- All other No, no, no, no...we have been through all this before. Until a newsgroup reaches 100 or more postings each day there is little justification for splitting the group and splits only lead to cross posting across the subgroups. The major reason behind newsgroups re-orgs and splitting is almost always to make subgroups for things people _DON'T_ want to read instead of the positive motive of creating a specialist subgroup people _DO_ want to read. I will strongly oppose any move to rename rec.kites to rec.kites.misc and destruction/removal of the existing group rec.kites. So...be warned...I am totally opposed to Miscism and renaming parent newsgroups to *.misc. BTW how long have you actually been reading rec.kites newsgroup ? Bye, = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:35:58 -1000 From: steveth@mindnet.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: <4a5qn2$5jk@shellx.best.com> Organization: NetMind Media Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie On Wed, 06 Dec 1995 03:53:12 +0100, Richard Bettis wrote: >In article: <86ag57ksag.fsf@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl> >albert@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl (Albert Mietus) writes: >> I very hard try to follow the rec.kites newgroup (and more ..) but >> reading one (complete) night per week isn't the way I wanted it. >> Currently there are to many ariticles, I think. >> >> Between Nov 14 and Dec 5 there are 600 (!!) articles posted. >> >My (multi-user) machine subscribes to a variety of groups. These include >rec.arts.anime.marketplace (454) >rec.kites (452) >sci.chem (693) >rec.music.beatles (2943) (Yes, nearly three THOUSAND postings!) > >the numbers are the unexpired messages in each group as I write. The last two >have shorter expiry times. Even before the current burst of 90's Beatlemania >r.m.b had ~300 postings *per day* ! > >rec.kites is *not* a busy group... > >rec.kites also has short postings by and large. (I discount the kite-jumpers >and their jumping jpg's - responsibility isn't expected in all quarters!) This >makes it relatively economic to download. You forgot some of the picture forums with GIG's of data every day. I'm sorry, I must have forgotten to order my home T1 line--I'm stuck at 28.8 Kbs, and downloading so many messages is a pain. That's beside the point, though. "Kites" is too broad. There are too many different things being talked about here that it's like puting Waterskiing and Woodworking in the same group. It's silly. Besides, you *could* just subscribe to ALL of the groups we split into--how hard could that be? I'm personally tired of wading through "RE: Yet Another Sewing Technique Ad Nausium", and I'm sure that others here are tired of wading through, "RE: Yet Another Sport Kite Rules Debate"--which personally I would find interesting. I think different people have different interests. I don't think too many groups would be needed, either: rec.kites.multiline rec.kites.singleline rec.kites.power rec.kites.craft Crossposting? Sure. It happens all of the time. The division still would help a lot, though. ____________ Steve Thomas steveth@mindnet.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:17:42 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <4a6t26$mnb@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie In article <4a5f2q$37d@orm.southern.co.nz>, cfbd@southern.co.nz (Colin Douthwaite) writes: >I will strongly oppose any move to rename rec.kites to rec.kites.misc and >destruction/removal of the existing group rec.kites. > >So...be warned...I am totally opposed to Miscism and renaming parent >newsgroups to *.misc. > >BTW how long have you actually been reading rec.kites newsgroup ? > > I vote with Colin. dean of aoxo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:44:32 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky ) Message-Id: <4a6ukg$auk@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie This is getting too good to let pass by any longer... In andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >I don't think...(nothing important deleted) nuf said Androol... >Some suggestions: > >1) A moderated group... Yea, I agree Androol, why don't you try it. You get a team of interested self appointed guru's like yourself and moderate rec.kites on your own BBS and if it works out don't worry about letting the rest of us know. If we don't here from you we'll know it worked. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:51:09 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie In article <4a3h25$db0@shellx.best.com> steveth@mindnet.com writes: >rec.kites.multiline >rec.kites.singleline >rec.kites.building (or "making", or "craft", or whatever) > >This should get us started. I agree, though, r.k is too crowded and >needs to be split up... I don't think that this addresses the real problem, which is the amount of dross that we have to wade through. In fact, with multi-posting by people who don't understand cross-posting, it may add to it. Before I say any more, let me point out that I'm *NOT* proposing to moderate rec.kites. The current, open forum should remain. Some suggestions: 1) A moderated group running in parallel. Much the same as rec.humour and rec.humour.funny. The moderator (who may be an individual, or a member of a team), would have particularly high standards. It would be considered an achievement to have written an article worthy of inclusion and most subscribers would expect to find most articles worth reading. 2) A moderated digest. A team of readers monitor rec.kites and mark selected articles for posting to a digest. (they would mail the unique article-id to an engine which would then post the corresponding article to the digest just once when it recieved a pre-determined number of votes) 3) A self-moderated group. You post to the group by mailing your article to a posting engine, which approves and posts anything sent to it. The mechanism for posting is described in the FAQ, therefore, you *must* read the FAQ before posting. Depending upon how draconian we want to be, the engine may maintain either a "black-list" of losers, who's posts are always rejected, or a "white-list" of those who are considered worthy to post to the group. 4) A Closed Mailing list. Which only selected people can subscribe to. There has been some demand for a forum in which builder can discuss research and design issues between themselves in a non-public arena, where a non-disclosure agreement is a pre-requisite to subscription. Drop me a line if you'd like to see any of these happening. If there is a large response, then maybe we'll do it... Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 03:38:28 -1000 From: neitzke@elk.miles.com (Robert C. Neitzke) Message-Id: Organization: Bayer Corporation Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie These things have been said ... >You forgot some of the picture forums with GIG's of data every day. > >I'm sorry, I must have forgotten to order my home T1 line--I'm stuck >at 28.8 Kbs, and downloading so many messages is a pain. Although I have sympathy for those with "Difficult Phone situations" I believe that ,"Like a well rounded education", rec.kites should remain as is. There is something about discovery and diversity that supports my belief. Besides it's easier to scan the topics than to probe sub/sub/sub dirs. At 28.2kb things should be pretty OK, so why not get a cup o java, spent some time with the kids, pets, even your wife, and let the computer do it's thang. And for all those with a fervor to "Share their HOME MOVIES and PHOTOs" I suggest creating themselves a webpage and then merely share the URL with the rest of us. Yeah I useed to take shots of model aircraft, when I was into R/C. I'd look at the prints and exclaim "wow" that so and so or "gee" that one was crashed 2 minutes later. Where as anyone else would look ans see a little bitty lost spot somewhere in the blue sky. Point is, a photo has to be pretty darn dramatic, unique, original and special before anyone else give a hoot. Suffice it to say... post 'em elsewhere ! 2 cents said, heading out ! Stay outa da treez Bob Neitzke e-mail work neitzke@elk.bayer.com CAD Sys Mgr Elkhart Site home birdofplay@aol.com Bayer, Diagnostics Div. web-page http://users.aol.com/birdofplay Stay outa da treez = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:35:34 -1000 From: navarrol@netcom.com (Larry Navarro) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie My question is: why do people have a problem with the number of articles in our newsgroup? My internet access allows me to scan the headers of all the current articles, read what I want while on-line, and blow off all the rest. It's a shell account. Do people actually have to download every article? I understand that some people have access through e-mail, is this the problem? I prefer not to split up the newsgroup, because if my interests change, I don't have to go somewhere else to learn about it. When I first started kiting, I didn't care about anything but 2-line; now I read the buggy posts, the building posts, the team and judging posts,... Compared to other newsgroups, I don't think rec.kites has that much activity. Sometimes I log on every day, and am disappointed when there are only a few postings. I like to read, I guess. Larry Navarro = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:16:59 -1000 From: mark@murder.compulink.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Message-Id: <4a7pcl$kon@zinc.compulink.co.uk> Organization: damage Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie bernhard.malle@dbag.ulm.DaimlerBenz.COM (Bernhard Malle) wrote: > [ quote/message deleted ] >I have tried to cope with the large number of articles by >introducing kill-files and very often kill simply because of the >subject line without reading the article. Current example is >the judging thread and the sewing machine thread. > I'm strongly opposed to splitting r.k., and I think you have given a good example of the solution to the 'too many messages' complaint - Use the available technology to reduce the burden ! ============================================ Its true that this usually implies filtering of messages, so you miss some stuff you might have liked to read, but this applies equally to splitting the group - this is just a fixed filter being imposed on you, rather than flexible filtering done by personal choice. You may have to change your newsreading technology to get the capabilities you need ( kill files, header-only downloads etc ), but then you will be able to apply these techniques to any group not just r.k. Splitting r.k. also assumes rather alot about the habits of its readers. In particular, it assumes that most folk can identify a small number of kiting pigeonholes in which they feel comfortable, and are prepared to forget about the rest. Well, I'm afraid I don't fit that model. Of the proposed classes of group, there isn't one I would want to lose completely. I fly all sorts of kites, I build them, I buy them , I talk about them, and even in the few things I don't actually do ( such as buggying ) I like to follow the debate ( well, maybe we could put all the AKA stuff in a seperate group...:)). Of course, I could just subscribe to all the 'new' kites groups. Then I'd have to suffer all the inevitable crossposting and have to track threads across ( how many was it ? ) about eight groups. As others will no doubt make clear, r.k. is *still* a comparatively low volume group. Now I'm sure someone ( hi Andy :) ) will leap to the defence of those who receive r.k. by mail, and suggest that they would / should be helped by splitting r.k. in this way. Well, I do have some sympathy for these folk - but nowhere near enough for this consideration to take precedence over the other arguments I have made. If someone can convince me that this minority of r.k. readership is growing faster than r.k. as a whole, I would have to reconsider, but I doubt that it would change my opinion in the end. So it should be quite clear by now that, in the event of a CFV, I'll be voting against any split. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ************************************ Final thoughts, as breath is taken, Fall to rhythm, and the Edge of pure obsession, Resting in the wind blown cradle, Nothing moves, the world is still... ************************************ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:47:32 -1000 From: Scott Humphrey Message-Id: Organization: Grand Valley State University Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Perhaps 600 hundred entries is alot to read in one night, but this is a relitively small newsgroup compared to others. There are many who have up to 400 entries in two days. I think rec.kites is just the perfect size, in my opinion. Scott Humphrey = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:07:24 -1000 From: griebeno@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Kai Griebenow) Message-Id: <4a8dls$62o@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Hi, I don't thinks the volume in rec.kites is really large. I am exclusively interested in single line kites, but I also read some postings concerning the dual line things - worldcup and so on. I also read Dod's postings about his travels and so on. And I agree with Emiel - the crossposting would just start. Just leave it like it is. Happy Kiting Kai = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:07:17 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie navarrol@netcom.com (Larry Navarro) writes: >My question is: why do people have a problem with the number of articles >in our newsgroup? I wasn't going to argue about this any more, but since you ask nicely, I'm only too happy to answer... >My internet access allows me to scan the headers of all the current >articles, read what I want while on-line, and blow off all the rest. >It's a shell account. Do people actually have to download every article? I happen to use a shell account (and trn) as well. This is efficient for high volume newsgroups where you only read a fraction of what is posted. I actualy use two accounts. I have an account at work, where we have a permenant connection (read: it's a toll-free call), where I skim several groups in this manner. For rec.kites, however, I download every article by phone to my home. I actualy look at (if not actualy read) every article. I maintain an archive of every article posted since Nov '92. Since I run Unix, my shell account is right here, at home. I can search the archive efficiently by Subject or inefficiently by content. (A content index would be the same size as the archive, and I just don't have room) Reading on-line is efficient if you're reading a small percentage of the volume. Reading Off-line is efficient if you're reading a large percentage, but prone to attack by binary dumps. As a regular *contributor*, reading off-line becomes essential, because the time taken to read pails into insignificance beside the time taken to *compose* articles. Someone complained that r.k takes and evening a week to read. Hell it takes me half an evening per day to contribute to (news and mail combined). Every day. Note that a large increase in volume would even affect those who read on-line. Administrators set news systems to expire (delete) old articles. On most sites, rec.kites will currently be set to a system-wide default of perhaps a week or a fortnight, depending upon how much space they've got available. When they run out of space, they look for something to cut back (and expire more quickly). Groups carrying binaries are usualy top of the list. >I understand that some >people have access through e-mail, is this the problem? Consideration for these people is part of the issue. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:19:58 -1000 From: ccrowell@willamette.edu (Carl Crowell) Message-Id: Organization: twisting Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie how about: rec.kites.complain rec.kites.complain.aka rec.kites.complain.aka.mr.nasty rec.kites.complain.copyrights whine whine whine.... If we split rec.kites into rec.kites.dual rec.kites.mono might as well split all the festivals too. stupid single liners parking their butts in the middel of a field. stupid dual liner psychos flying too close to the single liners....(but them buggies.. theys the worst!) Yeah tribalism!!! See you all at the Sarajevo Kite fly. -carl (I don't like to fly with single or multiline kites...) ____________________________________________________________________ email: ccrowell@willamette.edu http://www.willamette.edu/~ccrowell ____________________________________________________________________ The only true freedom is the freedom from the heart, freedom from passion. I am content in the cell of my mind. When the worms of decay eat though my skull and set me free, will I then be so content? ____________________________________________________________________ Copyright 1995, Carl Crowell = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:52:16 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie *sigh* I'm failing to leave this thread alone. >As others will no doubt make clear, r.k. is *still* a comparatively >low volume group. Now I'm sure someone ( hi Andy :) ) will leap to the >defence of those who receive r.k. by mail, and suggest that they would >/ should be helped by splitting r.k. in this way. I actualy take an unusual stance: I prefer to leave the Status Quo, but I'll happily help Steve Thomas put together the best proposal. If the consensus turns out to be that people want a split, I'd rather that the result was as workable as possible. I'll probably abstain from a CFV for a split, but I would support any proposal which brought new and added value in *addition* to the rec.kites that we all know and love, eg: 1) A Trade and/or Business group, where trade postings, adverts, price lists and the like would be most welcome. I don't want to see this in rec.kites, but I see no reason to deprive the trade of a suitable forum. I would probably subscribe occasionaly. 2) A binaries group. I wouldn't subscribe, but at least it would see the end of that particular argument. 3) A moderated, high signal-to-noise group of some description (but I've already posted about these things). Note however that I don't want any of these things enough to propose them myself. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:59:27 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <4a7o3v$9u6@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Eastern Oregon State College Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Steve Thomas writes: >I don't think too many groups would be needed, either: > >rec.kites.multiline >rec.kites.singleline >rec.kites.power >rec.kites.craft > >Crossposting? Sure. It happens all of the time. The division still >would help a lot, though. I agree. Five divisions sounds about right to me. But I would suggest the following: rec.kites.multiline rec.kites.singleline rec.kites.power rec.kites.kitemaking rec.kites.commercial Both buggys and boats would come under "power". I don't think we need two different sections for "power" and "craft" Both single and multi liners do "kitemaking". Maybe we should call it "craftsmanship" instead. And finally, suggest a "commercial" area where subtle and more blatant ads or announcements can be posted along with personal for-sale notices. What do you think?? -- David Gomberg phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:12:39 -1000 From: johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) Message-Id: Organization: Tethered Airfoil R&D Pty. Ltd.(C)(R)(TM) CD CASS Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie In article , Carl Crowell wrote: [ ] >-carl (I don't like to fly with single or multiline kites...) Yeah; all those strings are far too restrictive. -- Spin Doctors Produce Ten Barbers With Undeniable Proof -- Brian Johnsen johnsen@eskimo.com Seattle, Washington USA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:52:16 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie *sigh* I'm failing to leave this thread alone. >As others will no doubt make clear, r.k. is *still* a comparatively >low volume group. Now I'm sure someone ( hi Andy :) ) will leap to the >defence of those who receive r.k. by mail, and suggest that they would >/ should be helped by splitting r.k. in this way. I actualy take an unusual stance: I prefer to leave the Status Quo, but I'll happily help Steve Thomas put together the best proposal. If the consensus turns out to be that people want a split, I'd rather that the result was as workable as possible. I'll probably abstain from a CFV for a split, but I would support any proposal which brought new and added value in *addition* to the rec.kites that we all know and love, eg: 1) A Trade and/or Business group, where trade postings, adverts, price lists and the like would be most welcome. I don't want to see this in rec.kites, but I see no reason to deprive the trade of a suitable forum. I would probably subscribe occasionaly. 2) A binaries group. I wouldn't subscribe, but at least it would see the end of that particular argument. 3) A moderated, high signal-to-noise group of some description (but I've already posted about these things). Note however that I don't want any of these things enough to propose them myself. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:44:20 -1000 From: ciuffo@rainbow.rmii.com (Aaron Ciuffo) Message-Id: <4acle4$5g0@natasha.rmii.com> Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet Inc. Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Albert Mietus (albert@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl) wrote: : rec.kites.announce -- Anouncement of festivals, etc No discusions : rec.kites.plans -- discusion about plans (and its kites) : rec.kites.picture -- Nice pictures, unselect for low volume ! : rec.kites.stories -- About the person behind the line : rec.kites.making -- discusions about the best way to make a kite : rec.kites.buggies -- About buggies, bugging etc : rec.kites.4line -- discusions between the 4 liners : rec.kites.2line -- discusions between the 2 liners : rec.kites.1line -- discusions between the 1 liners : rec.kites.discuss -- "endless" discussions started in rec.kites.* : rec.kiters.misc -- All other : Maybe some others, some not .... : Please react (follow-up), is there any "formal" way to add groups in : the rec.* hierachie?? : P.S. Whenever the number of messages isn't more managable, I have to : stop reading rec.kites otherwise I only read about them, I want to : fly! : ---GAM albert@gamp.hacom.nl Sounds good to me....except, maybe not as many sub groups. I think we could illimiate .4line and .2line and make that one group "rec.kites.manuverable" or rec.kites.stunt or rec.kites.multimplelinesused tocontrol :> Also the stories and discussion could be consolidated. In my experience, when news groups split up into tons of little groups, things get nasty. A new person posts in rec.kites.discuss: "To day I bought my first kite and I was flying and it was great and it was fun. I love these new kites. I just learned how to do a turn, and I am very excited!" And they recive tons of mail and followups reading: "Stupid, this is for discussion not stories!" or "Why don't you try posting in rec.kites.stories" etc. I kind of like browsing through "general" groups so I can get a wide variety of posts. I do agree that this group should be split, but not into as many parts. Just my $.02 Aaron ;> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:53:06 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4ad91s$53k@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Scott Humphrey wrote: >Perhaps 600 hundred entries is alot to read in one night, but this is a >relitively small newsgroup compared to others. There are many who have >up to 400 entries in two days. I think rec.kites is just the perfect >size, in my opinion. I think so, too! Cheers, Ernst G'day, mate! Ernst Markus Kofler emk@via.at Team "Kite-O-holix" Pair "Just4Fun" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 22:26:11 -1000 From: samef@shout.net (Sam Francis) Message-Id: <4adul8$c3g@treflan.shout.net> Organization: Shouting Ground Technologies Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Leave rec.kites alone! It ain't broke...stop trying to *fix* it. Jeez. It's going to be a long winter! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 00:54:50 -1000 From: MVDAMME@GLOBALXS.NL (Maarten van Damme) Message-Id: <4aee2a$7qp@obelix.GlobalXS.nl> Organization: Dutch Channel Ltd. Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) wrote: >4) A Closed Mailing list. Which only selected people can subscribe to. >There has been some demand for a forum in which builder can discuss >research and design issues between themselves in a non-public arena, >where a non-disclosure agreement is a pre-requisite to subscription. With all respect to your suggestions, I am not in favour of any sort of elitism in this form. Who will decide/select? If you want to discuss specific subjects with the cracks and pro's without the 'hoi poloi' (latin for common man...) interfering, use e-mail, the phone or get together in a bar from time to time. Newsgroups are supposed to be for everyone! AGAINST SPLITTING REC.KITES I don't understand the size/download problem at all? It only takes me a couple of seconds to download the headers (using Free Agent) with a 14K4 modem. From there I pick the articles which look interesting , mark them and download them in one go. Also a couple of seconds... Besides A sophisticated program like Free Agent (shareware) allows you to ban certain threads from downloading. Also interesting threads can be marked and will be automatically retrieved. Besides 'multi-disciplinary' subjects (all with kiting as their basic theme off course) will attract new people and will also generate feedback from unsuspected angles. Maarten van Damme Maarten van Damme e-mail: mvdamme@globalxs.nl = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 12:43:50 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie MVDAMME@GLOBALXS.NL (Maarten van Damme) writes: >andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) wrote: >>4) A Closed Mailing list. > >With all respect to your suggestions, I am not in favour of any sort >of elitism in this form. Who will decide/select? If you want to >discuss specific subjects with the cracks and pro's without the 'hoi >poloi' (latin for common man...) interfering, use e-mail, the phone or ^^^^^^^^^^ >get together in a bar from time to time. Newsgroups are supposed to be >for everyone! Err... A closed mailing list does use email. They are set up by the people who are on the list, according to whatever criteria they choose. Here are some kite related mailing lists that I know of: The rec.kites Email/news gateway. This is the ancestral home of the rec.kites newsgroup. First there was a mailing list. Then a newsgroup was created, then Marty gatewayed them both into each other. The n@rk mailing list. A very small group of Nordic kitefliers who meet each year at Fano and work on joint kite projects. The Danish kite mailing list. Conducted in Danish language. The SNACK Mailing list. For keeping people involved in the STACK magazine in touch with each other. The Kite Admin list. A list of the people involved in maintaining kite net resources, so that we can discuss dull administravia without boring rec.kites. (seldom used) I just thought that it was worth mentioning, because it is a valid solution to *some* sets of problems. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:57:29 -1000 From: harris@bhc.com (Bob Harris) Message-Id: Organization: BHC Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie In Biology we say there are lumpers and splitters. Personally I'm a lumper. I enjoy the cross pollination that comes from diverse interests. I can filter the messages by topic so I read what I need, but can cross dress when desireable. Got a dual line, fighter kites, single lines, and I like to make my kites and I like art kites. So you figure. KISS. And the volume is NOT large. Check out some of the computer user groups for a real treat. 9,000 messages a month. -- Bob Harris harris@bhc.com http://www.bhc.com /|\ / | \ / | \ \ / \ / \ / + + + + + +++ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 04:12:53 -1000 From: march@tudorsoft.com (Gregory F. March) Message-Id: Organization: Tudor Software, L.L.C., N.Y., N.Y. Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie On Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:24:55 GMT, albert@beowulf.gamp.hacom.nl (Albert Mietus) said: |Between Nov 14 and Dec 5 there are 600 (!!) articles posted. Albert, That's less than 30 articles a day, and IMHO, not enough traffic to justify splitting r.k into multiple groups, let alone into 11 groups. The diversity of the group readers and subjects discussed is very interesting, but not overwhelming. I say keep the way it is. greg -- ------ Gregory F. March (march@ticshell.com) "Nobody scores my navigator and gets away with it!" - Calamity Jane, DR2000 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 04:43:12 -1000 From: neitzke@elk.miles.com (Robert C. Neitzke) Message-Id: Organization: Bayer Corporation Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie HEY! Has anyone noticed how much "bigger" rec.kites has become since the start of this thread. Maybe if we stop fixing it, it will fix itself. Or is this going to be a never ending post, too? Me? I don't care. I like it the way it is, but I have a fast feed. Change it and I can get to whatever that is fast too. Bob Neitzke e-mail work neitzke@elk.bayer.com CAD Sys Mgr Elkhart Site home birdofplay@aol.com Bayer, Diagnostics Div. web-page http://users.aol.com/birdofplay Stay outa da treez = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:59:37 -1000 From: Scott Humphrey Message-Id: Organization: Grand Valley State University Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie Finally some sense has leaked into this newsgroup. This whole splitting up thing is getting on my nerves! We should all just take a day off and go out and fix all our kites and clean out our bags instead of trying to fix this newsgroup. Give me a break!!! Scott = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:55:37 -1000 From: Scott Humphrey Message-Id: Organization: Grand Valley State University Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie I agree completely with you Sam. I think it will take even longer to change from one area to another to read all the posts. I enjoy rec.kites too much as it is to see it change. Scott On Sun, 10 Dec 1995, Sam Francis wrote: > Leave rec.kites alone! > > It ain't broke...stop trying to *fix* it. > > Jeez. It's going to be a long winter! > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:02:09 -1000 From: hammer1@popcorn.llnl.gov (Derrol Hammer) Message-Id: <4alc0l$cmn@necco.harvard.edu> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie On Mon, 11 Dec 1995 Robert C. Neitzke wrote: >HEY! >Has anyone noticed how much "bigger" rec.kites has become >since the start of this thread. He's right! It seems that 500f what I see on rec.kites is either about how to use/organize/file/format/etc. rec.kites or complaining about how someone else is using rec.kites. If you really want to split things, create rec.kites.administration to handle all the computereeez crap and bitching. If you really need to spout about how poorly someone is using the net, send it directly the poor sot you want to dis and maybe someone else who cares, not the whole lot of us. That should reduce rec.kites by half, making it very usable by both the honkers and the peepers among us. LET'S TALK ABOUT KITES!!! As Albert E. sez: The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. 'nuff sed. just go do it. Derrol aoxomoxoa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:29:14 -1000 From: steveth@mindnet.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: <4alv3l$sg6@shellx.best.com> Organization: NetMind Media Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie On Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:06:15 GMT, samef@shout.net (Sam Francis) wrote: >repost from rec.kites archives follows> This message is at least 18 months old. You must have spent quite some time digging to find this one... However, I'm proud to say that my posting here is consistent with my more recent postings. Nice try: >Steve writes: > > [stuff deleted, my point was: ] >An occasional big file is not going to kill anybody... My issue all along has NOT been big files. My newsreader threads with the best of them, and I don't need to download every file on rec.kites all of the time. My issue is the NUMBER of posts, and the number of DIFFERENT SUBJECTS. I've only said this about a thousand times. (And yes, this is increasing our volume here, but it's for a good cause :-) ). I guess some people lack basic reading comprehension skills... ____________ Steve Thomas steveth@mindnet.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 21:06:15 -1000 From: samef@shout.net (Sam Francis) Message-Id: <4aln3m$k93@treflan.shout.net> Organization: Shouting Ground Technologies Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie steveth@mindnet.com (Steve Thomas) wrote: clipped some: >I'm sorry, I must have forgotten to order my home T1 line--I'm stuck >at 28.8 Kbs, and downloading so many messages is a pain. here too: >I'm personally tired of wading through "RE: Yet Another Sewing >Technique Ad Nausium", and I'm sure that others here are tired of >wading through, "RE: Yet Another Sport Kite Rules Debate"--which >personally I would find interesting. >I think different people have different interests. repost from rec.kites archives follows> Steve writes: Each day millions and millions of bytes are transmitted throughout Usenet for the sole purpose of transmitting pornagraphic pictures (I believe this may be the single highest bandwidth user on the net...). Um, this really pales in comparison to an occasional Postscript file of, well, anything that us relatively uncreative folks here on rec.kites are going to possibly think of. The point is, one 230KB file is incredibly tiny in comparison with the rest of Usenet, and the net is here for everybody to use (and abuse :-)). As far as the gateway issue goes, this amounts to bringing all readers of this newsgroup down to the Lowest Common Denominator of news system--something I couldn't disagree with more... An occasional big file is not going to kill anybody... -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com "You'll never go broke appealing to the lowest common denominator." -- Lisa Simpson ======================================================= Steve, if you want to mess with rec.kites...please make up your mind. Sam = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 01:52:29 -1000 From: C.Groen@research.kpn.com (groen) Message-Id: Organization: KPN Research, The Netherlands Subject: Re: rec.kites grows ... its to big(?) split it into a hierachie In article , neitzke@elk.miles.com says... > >HEY! >Has anyone noticed how much "bigger" rec.kites has become >since the start of this thread. > Shall we create a newsgroup rec.kites.split, and continue the discussion there ??? Stop this thread ! I'm interesting in flying not splitting ! Kees Groen = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =