Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 07:57:59 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <1993Sep10.175759.13757@nic.funet.fi> Organization: Finnish Academic and Research Network Project - FUNET Subject: Request: World Cup Results I asked for World Cup results a couple of days ago. There has been about 10 followups on the subject. But, only the three best teams are mentioned, no points. All the other 10+ teams DQed? No wonder sport kiting is not considered 'sport', we don't even know how to publish results. Smooth Winds Simo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 11:29:00 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: Scores 'r Us Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results Simo Salanne (salanne@convex.csc.FI) wrote: : I asked for World Cup results a couple of days ago. : There has been about 10 followups on the subject. I have been a bit curious all summer about the lack of results for events. Someone will post a notice about an upcoming event.....and then, silence. I assumed there was an "underground" email report circulating..... So, dear Simo, I've just called Chuck Sigal, head scorekeeper, writer of festival software, and he graciously read the results to me. High Performance 82.0320 Air Kraft 79.9577 Ninja 74.2443 Slipstream 73.9706 Nisseki Kiteland 71.5930 Team Air Art 71.5311 Flashback 68.6566 High Flyers 65.3711 Kite-o-Holix 56.8052 Team A66 56.0413 Team Heaven Sent 55.8020 Team Tsunami 23.0571 I do not have, and will not get, separate scores for precision and ballet. Anne - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | * * Berkeley, California | * * rock@netcom.com | * * | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 11:34:58 -1000 From: sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) Message-Id: <26qru2$n46@news.umi.com> Organization: University Microfilms Inc. Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article <1993Sep10.175759.13757@nic.funet.fi> salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) writes: >But, only the three best teams are mentioned, no >points. All the other 10+ teams DQed? > >No wonder sport kiting is not considered 'sport', >we don't even know how to publish results. > >Smooth Winds >Simo Well Simo, since you brought it up, this is a subject that's been bugging me for a long time. The kiting community has got at least 2 forces that it has to overcome before the rest of the world outside of the people in the know will consider kiting a sport. Force 1: most people that don't know about kiting think that kite flying is about going out and buying cheap kites at the local "cheap store" (KMart, WalMart here in the US) and putting out as much line/ string as you can tie together. Force 2: From my experiences with people that I **USED** to fly with and reading some of the articles written in some of the magazines, we have some serious attitudes and political crap that need to be gotten rid of before this sport of ours can grow. Conversing over the net in "cyberspace" as one of my friends calls it has been a wonderful experience. I have learned a lot since I've been reading this. My gripe is with the people that put others a step down from themselves because some of those "other" people design/build/sell their "own" kites without doing on a full time basis. Read a couple of the last issues of SKQ. I have also experienced the attitudes like "I'm better than you and you can't play with me." Mostly, the kiting community is very friendly. I really like the attitudes of Ron Reich and Adrian Conn. They have an attitude such that they will tell you anything that you want to know. You just have to polish your skills so that you can beat them at their game. In talking with Ron, he gave me the ideas that let me fly two kites the way I do( 360's, nose launches, etc.). Then there's Adrian, he teaches so that he can learn. I just have to remember everything that has come up in my conversations with him. Basically, the big problem is the public. The general population just doesn't get it. Is there anyway to really bet on the sport of kiting like they do with Soccer, football, and basketball, just to name a few? Will the general population ever understand??? If I understand the Japanese culture correctly, kite flying over there is a religion where the whole town/city/whatever get into the "event". By no means are these the views and ideas of my company or the 5/20. Simo just hit a note that I just needed to spout about. Sam Ritter Pres. 5/20 Kite Group -- Detroit I can't receive e-mail yet so if you have a view on this for/against please post. PS. I thought this was a safe place to spout because it appears that people like Marty Sasaki has two jobs. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 12:28:19 -1000 From: sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Sep10.222819.7057@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article <26qru2$n46@news.umi.com>, sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) writes: >Basically, the big problem is the public. The general population just >doesn't get it. Is there anyway to really bet on the sport of kiting like >they do with Soccer, football, and basketball, just to name a few? Will >the general population ever understand??? The public is not the problem. The public never is. We, the kite community, are the problem. We don't present an understandable image to the public. We don't generate enough excitement to get the public involved. We fight with each other over petty things, and we sometimes do this in public. The general public just doesn't get it because we haven't done the right things to teach them. >If I understand the Japanese culture correctly, kite flying over there is >a religion where the whole town/city/whatever get into the "event". Not really a religion, but the Japanese do have a tendancy to take any activity and stage "events" around them. It is more whole hearted enthusiasm than anything else. >PS. I thought this was a safe place to spout because it appears that >people like Marty Sasaki has two jobs. Say what? I work for Harvard University as a software type, currently doing mail gateways and other networking stuff. In my spare time, I run Sasaki Kite Fabrications. Basically, SKF makes enough money to get me to kiting events and to convince the IRS that it is a business and not just a hobby. I don't understand why my having two jobs makes rec.kites a safe place to spout off. Not that it isn't a safe place.... -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 19:08:07 -1000 From: rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results Sam Ritter x3111 (sritter@umi.com) wrote: [intro deleted] : consider kiting a sport. Force 1: most people that don't know about kiting : think that kite flying is about going out and buying cheap kites at the local : "cheap store" (KMart, WalMart here in the US) and putting out as much line/ : string as you can tie together. Kite flying is about going out and buying cheap kites and flying them on as much string as possible. One rec.kiter does that, and writes about it, and reading about his enjoyment, and observations, has made me feel he's as much, if not more, in touch with "real" kiting as the person with $1000 worth of ripstop and graphite. That's how some people get started, and some never go beyond it, but it doesn't matter, because they *are* holding a kite string. For others, it's the start of a wonderful adventure. The rec.kiter mentioned above has moved into the world of ripstop and graphite, but I'll bet he won't forget watching a long train of cheap kites slowly follow a change of wind direction (and I won't forget reading about it). Anne - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Anne Rock | * * Berkeley, California | * * rock@netcom.com | * * | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 15:48:14 -1000 From: sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) Message-Id: <26raou$nng@news.umi.com> Organization: University Microfilms Inc. Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article <1993Sep10.222819.7057@das.harvard.edu> sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) writes: > >In article <26qru2$n46@news.umi.com>, sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) writes: >>Basically, the big problem is the public. The general population just >>doesn't get it. Is there anyway to really bet on the sport of kiting like >>they do with Soccer, football, and basketball, just to name a few? Will >>the general population ever understand??? > >The public is not the problem. The public never is. We, the kite >community, are the problem. We don't present an understandable image >to the public. We don't generate enough excitement to get the public >involved. We fight with each other over petty things, and we sometimes >do this in public. The general public just doesn't get it because we >haven't done the right things to teach them. I do agree on that point, that's the kind of attitude that I was talking about or actually part of it. > >>If I understand the Japanese culture correctly, kite flying over there is >>a religion where the whole town/city/whatever get into the "event". > >Not really a religion, but the Japanese do have a tendancy to take any >activity and stage "events" around them. It is more whole hearted >enthusiasm than anything else. > >>PS. I thought this was a safe place to spout because it appears that >>people like Marty Sasaki has two jobs. > >Say what? > >I work for Harvard University as a software type, currently doing mail >gateways and other networking stuff. In my spare time, I run Sasaki >Kite Fabrications. Basically, SKF makes enough money to get me to >kiting events and to convince the IRS that it is a business and not >just a hobby. > >I don't understand why my having two jobs makes rec.kites a safe place >to spout off. Not that it isn't a safe place.... Take a look at the articles/editorinals in the last couple of issues of SKQ. They are basically saying that people like yourself and what I am getting into, should do the "kite thing" full time, and anything less than that does not qualify your business as legitimate. This is more or less the interpretation of those editorials in a nutshell. I meant safe in the way that people may identify with my observations. I should have explained that a little further at the time, but I was in a rush to get out of work. Apologies if any offense. Only a few in kiting seem to be able to support themselves totally off of "kite money". It's not in the spirit of kiting to discourage someone >From possibly making advances in the sport. You never know who will have that breakthrough in technology. Sam = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 09:08:59 -1000 From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article <26raou$nng@news.umi.com> sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) writes: > >Take a look at the articles/editorinals in the last couple of issues of >SKQ. They are basically saying that people like yourself and what I am >getting into, should do the "kite thing" full time, and anything less >than that does not qualify your business as legitimate. This is more >or less the interpretation of those editorials in a nutshell. I meant >safe in the way that people may identify with my observations. I should >have explained that a little further at the time, but I was in a rush to >get out of work. Apologies if any offense. > >Only a few in kiting seem to be able to support themselves totally off >of "kite money". It's not in the spirit of kiting to discourage someone >from possibly making advances in the sport. You never know who will have >that breakthrough in technology. > Those articles you are talking about weren't very well written in the sense that I got different jists of them from different people. One person I talked to was very offended by the article(s) and he was/is a _full time_ kite business person. He read it as saying, "don't mess sabatoge the efforts of the big manufacturers by being a small one". I read the articles and found them to say nothing in particular about anything, except in their rather negative tone. SKQ had been going through pretty tough times at that time, and my guess is that the writer of those article(s) wasn't in a very good mood... Or at least, that's my theory... -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com This space intentionally left blank. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 08:56:45 -1000 From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas) Message-Id: Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article <26qru2$n46@news.umi.com> sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) writes: > >Well Simo, since you brought it up, this is a subject that's been bugging me >for a long time. The kiting community has got at least 2 forces that it has >to overcome before the rest of the world outside of the people in the know will >consider kiting a sport. Force 1: most people that don't know about kiting >think that kite flying is about going out and buying cheap kites at the local >"cheap store" (KMart, WalMart here in the US) and putting out as much line/ >string as you can tie together. Force 2: From my experiences with people that >I **USED** to fly with and reading some of the articles written in some of the >magazines, we have some serious attitudes and political crap that need to >be gotten rid of before this sport of ours can grow. I refer you to my "book" as it's called (not just my book, but I had the majority of the writing in it); check the archives of this news group, and you'll see a lot of articles about this very subject. Personally, I don't feel like writing another "book" :-). -- _______ Steve Thomas steveth@netcom.com This space intentionally left blank. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 07:44:10 -1000 From: hanson@kyoa.enet.dec.com (Bob Hanson) Message-Id: <1993Sep14.170450.20297@e2big.mko.dec.com> Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article <26raou$nng@news.umi.com>, sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) writes: [stuff deleted] > >Take a look at the articles/editorinals in the last couple of issues of >SKQ. They are basically saying that people like yourself and what I am >getting into, should do the "kite thing" full time, and anything less >than that does not qualify your business as legitimate. Sam, I don't believe that you interpreted what was said correctly. First, I think that you're probably making a reference to Susan Batdorff's editorial, "...addressing the critical issues," and that your references were not mentioned beyond that single issue. Secondly, we never had nor tried to convey a holier-than-thou attitude; what was said could be paraphrased as: '''The sport is hurting, lately, with kite shops closing down. This is due, in part, to the people who make their own kites and then sell them to friends/others on the field, depriving the storefront retailers of that piece of a very limited business. If this practice were to continue, then many more shops will go out of business, and that is a detriment to the industry.''' (To continue the thought, if ALL shops closed down due to this type of business taking place, where would established fliers buy their next must-have kite? Where would the newcomer get his first kite from? If there are no shops, there is less exposure of kiting to the general public, and that is usually not considered conducive to growing a business.) 'Sides, if I constructed a car (or a computer, or a vacuum cleaner) in my garage, and sold a couple of these pups to friends, filed no paperwork for incorporation, applied for no mercantile license, and paid not taxes to the IRS on my profits, would you consider *that* a legitimate business? I doubt that the IRS would. ;^) And as far as the reference to what Marty does...we reviewed his kites, I think we even ran an ad or two for either SKF or BASKC. He has a legitimate business, and we did business with him. >This is more or less the interpretation of those editorials in a nutshell. ...as you read it. >Only a few in kiting seem to be able to support themselves totally off >of "kite money". It's not in the spirit of kiting to discourage someone >from possibly making advances in the sport. You never know who will have >that breakthrough in technology. In the same editorial, we actually ENCOURAGE kite makers - whether they are "legitimate" (I don't think we ever used that term...) or not - to push the envelope in development, to find a new breakthrough in technology. What we DISCOURAGED was the practice of people making and then marketing "knockoff" kites that either have no distinct advantage over a commerically available kite, or were a direct knockoff of a well-known production kite. Good example: If I make an EXACT copy of Marty's K2 and sold as many as I could make, am I not impacting Marty's business? Emphatically, yes. Am I developing anything new? Certainly not. Am I advancing the sport? That's dependent upon how you look at it. Just wanted to clear this up. While everyone is going to have their own opinions of what is right or wrong for the industry, I wanted to ensure that the words we published were interpreted as we meant for them to be interpreted, and not taken exactly the opposite. Bob Former editor of the former SKQ. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 02:55:20 -1000 From: sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) Message-Id: <2773bo$d68@news.umi.com> Organization: University Microfilms Inc. Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article <1993Sep14.170450.20297@e2big.mko.dec.com> hanson@kyoa.enet.dec.com (Bob Hanson) writes: >In article <26raou$nng@news.umi.com>, sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) >writes: > >[stuff deleted] >> >>Take a look at the articles/editorinals in the last couple of issues of >>SKQ. They are basically saying that people like yourself and what I am >>getting into, should do the "kite thing" full time, and anything less >>than that does not qualify your business as legitimate. > >Sam, I don't believe that you interpreted what was said correctly. First, >I think that you're probably making a reference to Susan Batdorff's editorial, >"...addressing the critical issues," and that your references were not >mentioned beyond that single issue. > > there was one more editorial that I was including in my spout. It was actually a letter to the editor. I just took Susan's article at face value. The other letter/editorial was definitely of the 'flavor' that started this whole thread. If someone is going to produce a kite and sell it, it had better darn well be a 'quality' kite. Sam = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 04:30:34 -1000 From: sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) Message-Id: <279taa$h0b@news.umi.com> Organization: University Microfilms Inc. Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) writes: >Sam Ritter x3111 (sritter@umi.com) wrote: > [intro deleted] >: consider kiting a sport. Force 1: most people that don't know about kiting >: think that kite flying is about going out and buying cheap kites at the local >: "cheap store" (KMart, WalMart here in the US) and putting out as much line/ >: string as you can tie together. > >Kite flying is about going out and buying cheap kites and flying them on >as much string as possible. > >One rec.kiter does that, and writes about it, and reading about >his enjoyment, and observations, has made me feel he's as much, if not >more, in touch with "real" kiting as the person with $1000 worth of >ripstop and graphite. > >That's how some people get started, and some never go beyond it, but >it doesn't matter, because they *are* holding a kite string. For others, >it's the start of a wonderful adventure. > >The rec.kiter mentioned above has moved into the world of ripstop and >graphite, but I'll bet he won't forget watching a long train of cheap >kites slowly follow a change of wind direction (and I won't forget >reading about it). > If buying the cheap kites is all a person wants to do, that's fine. My original point was some people seem to think that's the only form of kiting. At the recent USAF Kite Festival, at least two of the single line fliers criticized the stunt kites as being a form of kiting that nobody really wants to watch. One of those people actually asked one of the event organizers "why do we need to have stunt kites? no one really comes to see them." Another said something about keeping the stunt kites on a separate field, because she didn't want to "smell the fumes" of the stunt kites. I wasn't putting down that form of kiting, I just used it as an example of what my perception of the general public thinks about kiting. What do you think the average non-kiter would comment about someone offering $6000 US for Adrian Conn's Genesis? That average person would probably think the offerer was insane. They would also think that Adrian was more insane for turning it down. Sam = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 18:28:41 -1000 From: dbell@lobby.ti.com (Dick Bell) Message-Id: <930916222841@dbell.dseg.ti.com> Organization: Texas Instruments Inc Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results In article <279taa$h0b@news.umi.com> sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) writes: >> In article rock@netcom.com (Anne Rock) writes: >> >Sam Ritter x3111 (sritter@umi.com) wrote: >> > [intro deleted] >> >: consider kiting a sport. Force 1: most people that don't know about kiting >> >: think that kite flying is about going out and buying cheap kites at the local >> >: "cheap store" (KMart, WalMart here in the US) and putting out as much line/ >> >: string as you can tie together. >> > >> >Kite flying is about going out and buying cheap kites and flying them on >> >as much string as possible. >> > >> >One rec.kiter does that, and writes about it, and reading about >> >his enjoyment, and observations, has made me feel he's as much, if not >> >more, in touch with "real" kiting as the person with $1000 worth of >> >ripstop and graphite. >> > >> >That's how some people get started, and some never go beyond it, but >> >it doesn't matter, because they *are* holding a kite string. For others, >> >it's the start of a wonderful adventure. >> > >> >The rec.kiter mentioned above has moved into the world of ripstop and >> >graphite, but I'll bet he won't forget watching a long train of cheap >> >kites slowly follow a change of wind direction (and I won't forget >> >reading about it). >> > >> >> If buying the cheap kites is all a person wants to do, that's fine. My original >> point was some people seem to think that's the only form of kiting. At the >> recent USAF Kite Festival, at least two of the single line fliers criticized >> the stunt kites as being a form of kiting that nobody really wants to watch. >> >> One of those people actually asked one of the event organizers "why do we need >> to have stunt kites? no one really comes to see them." Another said something >> about keeping the stunt kites on a separate field, because she didn't want to >> "smell the fumes" of the stunt kites. >> >> I wasn't putting down that form of kiting, I just used it as an example of >> what my perception of the general public thinks about kiting. What do you >> think the average non-kiter would comment about someone offering $6000 US for >> Adrian Conn's Genesis? That average person would probably think the offerer >> was insane. They would also think that Adrian was more insane for turning >> it down. >> >> Sam >> Sam, If I may.....for some reason there has allways been some kind of rift between the single liners and the dual liners for as long as I've flown. It's interesting. Some flyers don't (won't) join the AKA because so much effort is put into the dual liners and not as much effort into the single liners. I personally like both. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed here are my own and not Texas Instruments ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dick Bell dbell@lobby.ti.com Texas Instruments Dallas, Tx. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1993 07:01:29 -1000 From: wjon@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Jon Wagner) Message-Id: Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group Subject: Re: Request: World Cup Results I find it interesting that the statement: >> >That's how some people get started, and some never go beyond it, but >> >it doesn't matter, because they *are* holding a kite string. For others, >> >it's the start of a wonderful adventure. implies that the single line kiter is somehow not at the start of a wonderful adventure. I can remember my awe at a very young age of just watching a single line kite being flown in Japan by experts and then, wow, getting to hold a kite string. I feel that single line kites have a definite place in the kiting world. I must confess I like duel line kites and I think I was the 1st person in the state of Oklahoma to fly a quad (Still have the orginal "NEOS OMEGA" sail, love the double takes when I put it up next to a Rev!). My point, I hope, is that the adventure begings with the 1st holding of a kite string and the growth maybe going and buying a $3.00 kite at Wal-Mart next time instead of the $1.00 kite. just my $00.02 thanks jon wagner = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =