Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 02:51:33 -1000 From: mr@datcon.co.uk (Martin Richards) Message-Id: <1994Dec13.125133.3156@datcon.co.uk> Organization: Data Connection Limited Subject: Sleeving Spectra - how? Disclaimer - I have grepped the faq's for 'sleev' and I couldn't find this... I finally got some really good wind, and it wasn't raining, and there was no-one else about, and it was all really going well, and, and,... PING flutter flutter, there's my 6' flexi lying on the beach with only one line attached :( But anyway, now I have one line 6 feet shorter than the other, and 6' of line with some sleeving on it. What's the best way to get the sleeving back where it should be? I tried just pulling the line through with the other line (ie the broken-off bit is still in the sleeve) but the joining knot won't pass through. So before I start making threading needles out of bits of wire, is there a better way? I don't think I over stressed the line - it was only just starting to pull me about at the 'peak power' part of the flying window, I suspect it was something to do with my father in law and some trees back in August... Is this likely? How bad is the rest of the line likely to be? Is there an easy way of testing it (unfortunately my garden is less than 100' long so I can't just take it out the back and pull ;) Thanks, Martin. -- .--. .-.--.-- .-. | \ /__| | /__| Martin Richards, Data Connection Ltd, |___// | | / | mr@datcon.co.uk C O N N E C T I O N = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 21:04:23 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? mr@datcon.co.uk (Martin Richards) writes: >Subject: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? I'd like to provide a full and detailed answer to this question (a complete reference piece - more than just "poke the wire...etc), but I've got to go to work... If you don't see my followup within a week, drop me a line to remind me... (reply posted to save other people from doing it also...) Andrew -- Kite FAQ's: ftp.hawaii.edu:/pub/rec/kites/faq) o /\ Kite Jumping For sale: 10' Flexis with std & UF Spars. |_ \/ is for andrew@tug.com AoXoMoXoA (_\ M O R O N S = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 04:17:18 -1000 From: RODGER@ray.uct.ac.za (Rodger Duffett) Message-Id: Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? Hi All Greetings from a very windy Cape Town! The south easter has arrived a little late this year but has been doing some serious puffing over the last week or so. This is the time year when the power kiters come crawling out the woodwork and leave slug like tracks all over the beach. Yes, they do jump over here as well! Buggying is in its early early infancy with the Kite Shop having just brought over some of the Flexifoil PL type buggies. Nuff chatter... > But anyway, now I have one line 6 feet shorter than the > other, and 6' of line with some sleeving on it. What's > the best way to get the sleeving back where it should be? > So before I start making threading needles out of bits > of wire, is there a better way? This _is_ the best way although there are some heretics around who will tell you not to bother with sleeving. Take a thin piece of stiff wire more than twice as long as your sleeving and bend it in half with a nice tight pinch at the end. Twist it around itself and if you like attach a handle or brightly coloured tag of some sort. You then thread this through your sleeving and when the end pokes through the end of the sleeving you slip your line through the loop formed by the doubled back wire and draw it and your line back through the sleeving. It is a good idea to thread a generous amount of line (say three times the length of the sleeve) through the loop to prevent it being pulled out of the wire loop. Adjust the sleeve on the line until it is about 2.5cm (1inch) from the end of the line and tie a single overhand knot in the distal end. This will prevent your line dissapearing down the sleeving necessitating you having to start all over again. (Bet it happens at least once!!!) You will now need to find somewhere to stretch out your lines. (I use either a lamp post and the street in front of my house, a corridor at work or I pop in to the Kite Shop factory.) Loop the ends of both lines over something and walk your lines out. Undo the knots in the sleeving on the free end of the longer line being careful not to let the line slip through (bet it happens at least once). Then push the sleeving forward to match up with the sleeving on the other line. Apply equal tension to both lines and adjust the free sleeve so that the inner ends of both sleeves match up. It is important to smooth both sleeves out ie make sure that one or the other is not scrunched up. I also usually undo the knot forming the loop in both leaving a single overhand knot in the end of one of the pairs. Once you have the sleeving adjusted firmly pinch the free sleeve to prevent it moving while retieng the single overhand knot in the free end. Check lengths again and trim off excess. Retie the double overhand knots in both and give the lines a good stretch. Adjust again if necessary. Some people use a line balancing tool to ensure equal tension in the lines. I have no experience of these and manage fine without one. Anybody else with some other tips??? Cheerio __________________________________________________________________ Rodger Duffett Internet Address: rodger@ray.uct.ac.za Dept. Radiation Oncology Telephone : (021) 404 3135 Radiobiology Section University of Cape Town Groote Schuur Hospital South Africa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 07:49:48 -1000 From: tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com (Bert Tanaka) Message-Id: <9412141749.AA24450@mts-gw.pa.dec.com> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? Subj: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? mr@datcon.co.uk (Martin Richards) writes: >Subject: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? In Ron Reich's book, Kite Precision, there is a chapter devoted to sleeving lines. The sleeving tool is called a "fid", and consists of, more or less, a folded piece of wire that is used to draw line into and thru the core of the sleeving material. You can get the tool thru mail order from Into the Wind, among other places. I like the one I got from ITW because the wire is extra long, and is easy to work with. Good Winds, Bert = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 12:35:34 -1000 From: coreykite@aol.com (Coreykite) Message-Id: <3cnrvm$jbs@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? In article , RODGER@ray.uct.ac.za (Rodger Duffett) writes: >Any more sleeving tips?< I respond... Although Spectra is not as abrasive as Kevlar, I don't enjoy watching my expensive lines wear rapidly or abrade at the end-knot, so I sleeve. I cut all my sleeves the same length... for quick and dirty repairs on the field, I leave the little overhand knot at the end of the sleeve of the line I am repairing, and pull the other line until the ends of the sleeves are next to each other. Because the sleeves are the same length, when the ends match, I tie the sleeving knots and have two lines VERY close in length without using any other tool. Usually I get to within 1/2 inch the first time. Often closer. Buggy or Die! aoxomoxoa coreykite@aol.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 17:50:59 -1000 From: Dan Whitney Message-Id: Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Subject: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? Nice sleever can be made out of thin piano wire, which you can get at any hobby shop. cost about 10 cents for 36 '' cut the wire at the lenght that you need, just about 1 inch longer than the sleeving that you use, put just a few twist in the wire then get a small electrical butt connector in red( so you can find it in the grass or whatever) stick the cut ends into it then crip with pliers. you now have an excellent sleever for 20 cents and no shipping cost and they work great. If you dont understand this for any reason give me your mail address and i will send you some dan gone with the wind kites-california = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 06:06:55 -1000 From: jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) Message-Id: <3cppiv$b86@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re; sleeving spectra-how. in articleMessage-ID: Andrew writes; >Much about sleeving and> There are some who never sleeve, but since the knot weakens the line considerably, the old engineering maxim is only re-enforced "If it don't break, it's too heavy!"< WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!! ;-) Maybe you need to get out more often and try to expand your years old paradigms about spectra and sleeving! My last thread on this tired old subject(see knot again:-). ) clearly took care of the Old weak knot theory. Try the Bimini wrap. A relatively new fishing knot that claims to retain 1000f the line strength!!! I haven't tried it yet but I also find that three overhand knots on UNSLEEVED spectra to hold nicely. As for Corykites statement about high abrasion (hey Corey!) Yes he has a point. There are situations that spectra will wear, such as the metal loop on flexi's, but a small link line usually suffices. Now, since I have been called both pathetic and a heretic online, Please allow me give you MY complete guide to not sleeving spectra. 1. cut spectra into even lengths. 2. Tie three overhand knots or the bimini wrap. 3. fly your kite!!!!!! Disclaimer: I have nothing against sleeving really! I have just found it to be a big waste of time! The only thing I have an issue with is the belief that all sorts of bad things will happen if you don't sleeve. I have competed for the last three years without sleeves and Never had a line break at the knot. I buggy with unsleeved spectra and have had NO problems. Please, try it. You may like it. Try breaking unsleeved spectra (tied correctly) and see for yourself. Try the new Bimini wrap! As Marty stated, spectra is very abrasion resistant. You are correct sir. Just try not to let the spectra slip at the knot as this causes the spectra to melt and break. Come on people try it and tell me what you think. plus, all you closet non-sleevers and wanna be's speak up!!! (you didn't think I would be quiet on this subject did you?) Be a rebel, fly sleeveless!!!! John. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 09:09:05 -1000 From: sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <3cq48h$80r@netope.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard OIT Network Services Subject: Re: Re; sleeving spectra-how. In article <3cppiv$b86@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) writes: |> WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!! ;-) Maybe you need to get out more often and |>try to expand your years old paradigms about spectra and sleeving! My last |>thread on this tired old subject(see knot again:-). ) clearly took care of |>the Old weak knot theory. Try the Bimini wrap. A relatively new fishing |>knot that claims to retain 1000f the line strength!!! Okay, I don't want to sound like a tired record, but I think that the best book on knots for smaller diameter lines, like the stuff we use for kite flying is "Practical Fishing Knots II", by Mark Sosin and Lefty Kreh. They cover a bunch of knots useful for fishing. The original edition "Practical Fishing Knots" had more knots in it, so if you can find one of these, it is useful as well. The knot that John "The Anchor" Tavo mentions is called the "Bimini Twist". It is called this because it was first used to make a doubled line for use as a leader for fishing off of Bimini. It is at least 25 years old, which in terms of knots, is knew, I guess. In dacron and nylon, both braided and monofilament, it does retain 100 strength. It doesn't fair well with Kevlar, but this is probably due to Kevlar's tendancy to weaken when taking sharp bends. I haven't tried it with Spectra. The main problem with the Bimini twist is that it is a pain to tie and is difficult to tie to an exact length. However, Larry Moeller, a past president of Kites Over New England made up a train of Rainbow Stunt Kites with train lines made with Bimini Twists. There are similar knots which do a good job. I don't believe that these knots have been tested with Spectra, at least I haven't seen any reports from this. And as far as you "clearly took care of the Old weak knot theory", you really haven't done that. Someone pointed out that in the "knot business" a break within a few inches of the knot is considered to be "at the knot". Further, I contend that the weak point is not at the overhand, knot, but at the lark's head where the line is attached. We are supposed to have a snow storm this weekend, I guess I'll destroy some spectra while watching TV... -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 11:05:13 -1000 From: skywardmfg@aol.com (SkywardMfg) Message-Id: <3cqb29$55a@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Re; sleeving spectra-how. In article <3cppiv$b86@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) writes: WELL, I'm a nonsleeverbut not for the same reasons. I'm just to lazy but i have never had a problem. If i do i just get BIGGER LINE!!! SEE YA! MIKE SIMMONS = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 17:08:34 -1000 From: johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) Message-Id: Organization: Cap'n Puget's Roadside Tako Stand Subject: Re: Re; sleeving spectra-how. In article <3cppiv$b86@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, JTavo wrote: >in articleMessage-ID: Andrew writes; [ ] >2. Tie three overhand knots or the bimini wrap. .JPG! .JPG! >> kites@ftp.hawaii.edu -- Oranges Have Astral Guru Powers, Reveal German Meta-physicists Watercolor Evidence Offers Proof -- Brian Johnsen johnsen@eskimo.com Seattle, Washington, USA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 23:54:00 -1000 From: mr@datcon.co.uk (Martin Richards) Message-Id: <1994Dec16.095400.2445@datcon.co.uk> Organization: Data Connection Limited Subject: Re: Sleeving Spectra - how? Dan Whitney (gwtw@delphi.com) wrote: : ... [snip] ... in red( so you can find it in the grass or whatever) But I'm red-green colour blind - will it still work if I make it blue ;) Seriously, thanks for all the info everyone. One to add to the FAQ files? The next question is, what do I do with my newly sleeved lines and NO wind? (Yes, I DO have the FAQ for that one :-) Cheers, Martin. -- .--. .-.--.-- .-. | \ /__| | /__| Martin Richards, Data Connection Ltd, |___// | | / | mr@datcon.co.uk C O N N E C T I O N = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 09:38:47 -1000 From: jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) Message-Id: <3csqc7$28o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Sleeving spectra- how In article And as far as you "clearly took care of the Old weak knot theory", you really >haven't done that. Someone pointed out that in the "knot business" a break Message-Id: Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Subject: Re: Re; sleeving spectra-how. JTavo writes: >Be a rebel, fly sleeveless!!!! John. I must admit....I tried "going sleeveless" once. ...but I did't launch. :( Actually, when I bought my first serious stunter, four + years ago, >From Terry Younker at Ocean Kites in Longbeach. He told me I didn't really need to sleeve, but if I did, I would be doin' it like the "Pros". steveirby@delphi.com Steve Irby Renton Wa. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =