Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 12:51:35 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <49io7t$gk7@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Team kiting: Judging problems Hey team fliers out there! During this season, there came up some points to discuss. At Euro-Cup in Hamm two things happened: - A three-person team (Skydance) became European Champion - Skydance crashed in their precision routine after 2:30, but got most points. At World Cup VI some other things happened: - Aircraft won with a special composed music. - Teams with 3, 4, 5 and 6 members were competing. - The 6-team flew in precision only with 4 members. Question: Isn't it much harder to fly with 4 or 5 than with only 3 kites? Especially the compulsories (e.g. Arc de triomphe, Basket) can be flown much easier with 3 kites than with 4. So: Do the judges have to give a penalty to 3 man teams and on the other way, to judge teams with 5 pilots better? Question: If a team comes down after 2:30 and had flown perfectly until this point (sharp corners, difficulties, ...): can they get a good result then? Isn't the risk in the last 1:30 higher, because the pilots get tired? Wouldn't it be easier simply to write a routine with only 2:30 then? Question: You have a perfect precision-routine. A musician with modern equipment comes along (sampler, synthesizer) and writes the music for this precision routine. With the synthesizer, it's very easy to play special effects for special maneuvers of the kites. Will in future the team with the best musician win the ballet competition? Question: What is the perfect team size? 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 20?? What are the differences in judging teams of different sizes? The more pilots, the harder? Tsunami's flight (6 members) most time looked like two copies of Skydance (3 members), sometimes mirrored, sometimes parallel. Teams with 10 kites could fly like two teams of 5 persons. How can a team of 10 be compared with a team of 3? Does it make sense to define an exact size for teams? Can this be compared with bob racing where you only can have 2 or 4 competitors? Question: Is it fair to grant a team with 6 persons, to fly precision only with 4? Now say, if the ballet with more kites can reach a higher score, will then teams fly ballet with 8 kites and precision with only 3 kites? How do you kiters (especially team pilots) think about these questions? Cheers, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 04:55:48 -1000 From: hayden1009@aol.com (Hayden1009) Message-Id: <49kglk$mu1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Ernst asked some good questions about judging team flying. "Euro-Cup in Hamm 2 things happened: - 3-person team (Skydance) became European Champion even though they crashed in their precision routine after 2:30 and got the most points. At World Cup VI some other things happened: - Aircraft won with a special composed music. - Teams with 3, 4, 5 and 6 members were competing. - The 6-team flew in precision only with 4 members." "Question: Isn't it much harder to fly with 4 or 5 than with only 3 kites? Especially the compulsories (e.g. Arc de triomphe, Basket) can be flown much easier with 3 kites than with 4. So: Do the judges have to give a penalty to 3 man teams and on the other way, to judge teams with 5 pilots better?" Yes, it is much harder to fly figures cleanly with more kites, but it is much easier to fly sloppier figures, too. As a judge, we don't penalize 3 person teams, but if 3, 4 and 5 person teams fly the same figure with the same precision, the 5-person team would get the higher points and each additional person adds a level of difficulty. Remember, flying cleanly means spacing, speed, straight lines, square corners, no line or ground ticks, etc. "Question: If a team comes down after 2:30 and had flown perfectly until this point (sharp corners, difficulties, ...): can they get a good result then? Isn't the risk in the last 1:30 higher, because the pilots get tired? Wouldn't it be easier simply to write a routine with only 2:30 then?" Judging is on what is done, not what isn't done. If a team flys a 2:30 routine and another goes the distance to 4 or 5 minutes, presumably the longer routine would have more in it and score higher. Of course, the converse is also true and you pointed out the longer routine has a greater margin of error. If is probably a matter of personal approach to life, are you conservative or a risk taker. Either could win on any given day. "Question: You have a perfect precision-routine. A musician with modern equipment comes along (sampler, synthesizer) and writes the music for this precision routine. With the synthesizer, it's very easy to play special effects for special maneuvers of the kites. Will in future the team with the best musician win the ballet competition?" Sorry, in the USA AKA and ELF events we don't fly precision to music. Only ballet. But for ballet, we do see the same sort of thing. We don't judge the music, but rather the flying to the music. What is the difference between writing your own music (other than musical talent) and finding a truly perfect piece to fly to? The performer(s) still have to fly to the music and have the same variables of wind, humidity and sun that the rest of us have. Which means that they still have to be able to maintain control, speed and spacing to keep flying to their carefully editted/written music. "Question: What is the perfect team size? 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 20?? What are the differences in judging teams of different sizes? The more pilots, the harder? Tsunami's flight (6 members) most time looked like two copies of Skydance (3 members), sometimes mirrored, sometimes parallel. Teams with 10 kites could fly like two teams of 5 persons. How can a team of 10 be compared with a team of 3? Does it make sense to define an exact size for teams? Can this be compared with bob racing where you only can have 2 or 4 competitors?" I think that this question relates to how judging is done. It is on what the group does and how well it does it. It is not just a count of members for points. Again, as a judge I am looking for varied approaches to team flying within a routine: a good mix of follow the leader, mirrored, syncopated flying, and interactive flying, etc. "Question: Is it fair to grant a team with 6 persons, to fly precision only with 4? Now say, if the ballet with more kites can reach a higher score, will then teams fly ballet with 8 kites and precision with only 3 kites?" This is a good questio = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:34:40 -1000 From: sqedison@aol.com (SQEdison) Message-Id: <49lf2g$30r@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems HI: great post. I think you should write Sheri and Dave Arnold they are the AKA sport kite chair people and do a good deal of Judging. They helps write the rules and you have some good thoughts that could help change the rules to be more fair to everyone. I have flown kites and judged for over 10 years, and I could see lots of good points to your questions. Everyone has the same option to do what is to their advantage in a contest. The judges have to come to the points they give based on rules that have to be defined by the most good for everyone and the most fair. It is very hard to make these rules and many people over the years have worked to make it fair and logical and work. Conversation and thoughts like yours only make it better. Please share your views in a direct manor that can have a real effect on the rules. Write to Sheri and Dave on the sport kite committe. Thanks SQE SUSIE Q EDISON = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:58:05 -1000 From: g.umlauft-magnet.@@magnet.at (g.umlauft@magnet.at) Message-Id: <414842846.85779287@magnet.at> Organization: magnet Online Service Reply-To: g.umlauft-magnet.@@magnet.at Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Dear Ernst! Its a little bit strange for me to answer to your mail via rec.kite, because we often meet in Vienna on the flying flied. But you asked some questions other kite- especially team flyers are also interested in, and so I answer via internet. >At World Cup VI some other things happened: > >- Aircraft won with a special composed music. >- Teams with 3, 4, 5 and 6 members were competing. >- The 6-team flew in precision only with 4 members. > >Question: Isn't it much harder to fly with 4 or 5 than with only 3 kites? >Especially the compulsories (e.g. Arc de triomphe, Basket) can be flown much >easier with 3 kites than with 4. So: Do the judges have to give a penalty to 3 >man teams and on the other way, to judge teams with 5 pilots better? In the rulebook is written that the number of team members does not influence the judging. A team freely can decide to start as a 3,4,5,6,... person team. Each team configuration has its own characteristics. A three (wo)men team has not so many possibilities to fly nice formations, teams with an even numer of (wo)men can fly nice symetric figures, the special effect from 5 (wo)men teams is splitting in groups of 2/3 and so on. Each group has its difficulties and advantages. There is no need to judge a team with 3 members in an other way than the 5 or 6 (wo)men team. They have decided to fly in this formation, they knew what they did. >Question: If a team comes down after 2:30 and had flown perfectly until this >point (sharp corners, difficulties, ...): can they get a good result then? >Isn't >the risk in the last 1:30 higher, because the pilots get tired? Wouldn't it be >easier simply to write a routine with only 2:30 then? For the judge it is not essential how long the team flies or how tired it is. Within a 1:30 routine you can fly a certain amount of maneouvres. In a 3:00 routine there are aproximately twice as much manoeuvres - you have more chances to show your abilities. Therefore most teams do not think about risks while creating their ballet or technical routine, they think what manoeuvres they can fly in their routine. And again -each team has the free decision what to do. >Question: You have a perfect precision-routine. A musician with modern >equipment >comes along (sampler, synthesizer) and writes the music for this precision >routine. With the synthesizer, it's very easy to play special effects for >special maneuvers of the kites. Will in future the team with the best musician >win the ballet competition? No judge will ask you how you made your routine. The judge only decides about the whole performance, if the music is interpreted well, if the manouvers are flown precise, if the timing and spacing were good. The team must fulfill thoser requirements to get good scores. If there is a good musician in the team making the ballet routine, it is certainly a very good chance, but this routine must be flown by someone. And if the team members cannot fly this musically very good routine it will not win. >Question: What is the perfect team size? 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 20?? What are the >differences in judging teams of different sizes? The more pilots, the harder? >Tsunami's flight (6 members) most time looked like two copies of Skydance (3 >members), sometimes mirrored, sometimes parallel. Teams with 10 kites could >fly >like two teams of 5 persons. How can a team of 10 be compared with a team of >3? >Does it make sense to define an exact size for teams? Can this be compared >with >bob racing where you only can have 2 or 4 competitors? Why should the number of team members be limited? Isn`t it nice to have different team sizes in one competition. Isnt it interesting to compare the different formations in 3,4,5 person teams? How boring would it be to have only 4 person team and all are copying Airkraft because it seems to be the best way to win. >Question: Is it fair to grant a team with 6 persons, to fly precision only >with >4? Now say, if the ballet with more kites can reach a higher score, will then >teams fly ballet with 8 kites and precision with only 3 kites? > >How do you kiters (especially team pilots) think about these questions? In STARRC we discuss at the moment, if the number of team members could be changed between precision and ballet. My personal opinion is, that a team is an unit and has to fly both, precision and ballet in the same configuration. I can remember the WC in Berkely ( flying with Kite-o-holix), where Tsunami flew the same configuration - 4 in precicion and 6 in ballet. But at this WC they had no advantage in flying ballet with 6 persons - the tails of the kites tangled and they had a DQ. So- every thing has two sides. Greetings from Vienna Gertraud Umlauft --- OffRoad 1.9k registered to Gertraud Umlauft --- Internet Message Header Follows --- (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for rec.kites@magnet.at); Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:27:19 +0100 From: g.umlauft@magnet.at (Gertraud Umlauft) Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Date: 30 Nov 1995 23:58:05 GMT Message-Id: <414842846.1995007@magnet.at> Organization: magnet Online Service = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:12:56 -1000 From: jim@oasis.icl.co.uk (Jim Cheetham) Message-Id: Organization: ICL, Bracknell, UK. Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems g.umlauft@magnet.at (g.umlauft-magnet.at@magnet.at) wrote: : Dear Ernst! : >Question: You have a perfect precision-routine. A musician with modern : >equipment : >comes along (sampler, synthesizer) and writes the music for this precision : No judge will ask you how you made your routine. The judge only decides : about the whole performance, if the music is interpreted well, if the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ But I think this question is asking, when happens if the team are *not* "interpreting the music", but using music that essentially "interprets the flying". I don't have much experience of music-related performance sport (ice-skating, synchro swimming, etc) but I seem to note that the music is always some pre-existing piece. If this is the case, shouldn't it be made true for us flyers? It does remove the possibility of the musician doing the interpreting, rather than the performers ... On the other hand, though, many of the more beautiful pieces of music in this world were written specially for a specific performer, and it is seen as acceptable for singers to perform pieces that best show off *their* abilities ... -- +44 1344 472537 _____ ceci n'est ____ _ pas une _ _ email (__ __) o ______ ( __)( )_ ___ ___ _( )_( )_ ___ ______ (____) (_)(_)()(_) (____)(_)_)(__=)(__=) (_)_(_)_)(___)_(_)()(_) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 03:58:19 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (SPC) Message-Id: <49n1lr$qhh@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <49io7t$gk7@news.via.at>, Ernst Markus Kofler wrote: >Hey team fliers out there! Hey there back! :-) >During this season, there came up some points to discuss. At Euro-Cup in Hamm >two things happened: > >- A three-person team (Skydance) became European Champion >- Skydance crashed in their precision routine after 2:30, but got most points. As long as the precribed penalty was assessed, no "problem" from this corner. After all, that is what penalties are for. Now maybe one can argue that the penalty for a hard crash is not severe enough, but normally it throws your timing off sufficiently to mess what follows up. >At World Cup VI some other things happened: > >- Aircraft won with a special composed music. I don't see anything inherently wrong with this. Lots of people edit music, some, like Dorothy Wagner, even compose and record their own music. One still must match the kite motion to the music (something I *still* haven't gotten down). >- Teams with 3, 4, 5 and 6 members were competing. >- The 6-team flew in precision only with 4 members. If the European competition uses both the Precission score and Ballet score combined to crown the champion, I do not believe it is fair to subtract/add members to a team in this situation. In reality, there are two teams competing as one, imo. Probably this needs to be addressed by the rule's committee of what ever rule book they were using. In the US, there is a combined event so no problem. Precission and Ballet are two separate events, not one. Thus, while the name may stay the same, there are two teams. As far as dificulty goes, the more kite the more difficult. But how many fliers are on the team should be up to the team. They should consider it (the number of fliers) when organizing. I don't think there should be any adjustment to score for the number of fliers. >easier simply to write a routine with only 2:30 then? Certainly. That's why some teams flt shorter. ANd individuals for that mater. I think it was Ron Reich who said long ago that you can do everything you possibly can with a kite in 2 minutes (or there abouts). But it's *so* much fun to fly, who wants to fly for less time? '-) >Will in future the team with the best musician >win the ballet competition? Naw, They still have to fly the best. >Question: What is the perfect team size? Four. >Question: Is it fair to grant a team with 6 persons, to fly precision only with >4? As long as they fly only Precission, yes. If it is a combined event, as I stated before, no. It is not fair to drop members off for a portion of the competition. I suppose that will have to be addressed. Gentle breezes, Steve Confederate Air Force - Pilot #4 PS: We be practising. We'll be better next year. *************************************************** * I'm not a participant in any organized hobby... * * I'm a kiteflier! * ******************** aoxomoxoa ******************** http://server1.admin.gatech.edu/fac/steve/kiting/kiting.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:29:05 -1000 From: Richard Bettis Message-Id: <140223474wnr@fats.demon.co.uk> Organization: Health & Safety Lab Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article: <49io7t$gk7@news.via.at> emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) writes: > Question: You have a perfect precision-routine. A musician with modern equipment > comes along (sampler, synthesizer) and writes the music for this precision > routine. With the synthesizer, it's very easy to play special effects for > special maneuvers of the kites. Will in future the team with the best musician > win the ballet competition? I would have thought that a well-executed routine carried out to a piece of music the judges are familiar with will have more 'punch' than an identical routine carried out to a 'bespoke' piece. With a 'known' piece of music you anticipate the next phrase, and appreciate the way the routine can match it. In something as subjective as 'artistic' judgment (in a ballet comp.) it would be my guess that this kind of subconcious impression counted for a lot. Never judged, might be talking complete crap (nothing new there), what do the judges themselves think? -- +=============================================================================+ | Richard Bettis | "I make no warranty with respect to this | | | statement and disclaim any implied/explicit | | | suggestions of usefulness for any purpose" | +=============================================================================+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:18:49 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <49m6o9$sb2@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Eastern Oregon State College Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems >How do you kiters (especially team pilots) think about these questions? These are good and interesting questions, but I am curious. Why are you more interested in the opinions of team fliers, than of judges or the spectators? -- David Gomberg phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:03:59 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <49oc6f$p6c@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Eastern Oregon State College Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Just a couple of observations and questions... >A 3-person team (Skydance) became European Champion >even though they crashed in their precision routine after 2:30 >and got the most points. I'm not sure whether "crash" in this case means the performance stopped, or continued in spite of the crash. If the performance ended, then the team should have received a heavy mandatory .9 penalty against their artistic score. If they "crashed" by contacting in the air, or hitting the ground and relaunching, they should have received a mandatory .2 penalty against their technical score. And on top of this, subjective deductions should have been applied by the judges depending on how much of a disruption the crash caused. Did Skydance receive any penalties? The reason that hard or mandatory penalties were added to the rules, was to apply *consistent* deductions for recognizable errors. If all the proper deductions were applied, and they won anyway, then I see no problem. >You have a perfect precision-routine. A musician with >modern equipment comes along (sampler, synthesizer) >and writes the music for this precision routine. Will in future >the team with the best musician win the ballet competition?" Simple answer: No. There are two components in both Precision Freestyle, and Ballet. Those components are Artistic and Technical. In Precision, scoring is weighted heavily toward the technical component. In Ballet the scoring is weighted toward artistic. So if a "perfect" technical routine is set to specially composed music, it should lose to a more artistic performance - presuming the judges are doing their job. BTW - 600f the Precision score is for compulsory maneuvers, not thefreestyle performance. -- David Gomberg phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 05:24:18 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (SPC) Message-Id: <49sff2$c6a@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <49oc6f$p6c@ednet1.osl.or.gov>, David Gomberg wrote: >BTW - 600f the Precision score is for compulsory >maneuvers, not thefreestyle performance. Or, in League Style Precission, 80 423936s the required maneuvers and 20 423936s for the transitions. Gentle breezes, Steve *************************************************** * I'm not a participant in any organized hobby... * * I'm a kiteflier! * ******************** aoxomoxoa ******************** http://server1.admin.gatech.edu/fac/steve/kiting/kiting.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 06:36:02 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <49sjli$n3m@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Eastern Oregon State College Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Here is one more thing to consider: For as long as ballet has been flown in competition, fliers have been customizing music. Lee Sedgewick and Sue Taft began splicing together several songs in the mid 1980's. High Performance was famous for combining several pieces of film music together for their World Cup Winning routines. They would include as many as five different soundtracks that provided just the right mood or effect for certain flight maneuvers. Some performers, particularly teams, are now "manipulating" their music even more on computer sound boards. I have seen teams prepare slower or faster versions of the *same* music for different wind conditions. The music almost sounds the same, but the difference is just enough to make flying it possible in light and heavy winds. So where do we draw the line? My opinion is that we simply judge what we see and how well it relates top what we hear. -- David Gomberg phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:07:58 -1000 From: lbush14668@aol.com (LBush14668) Message-Id: <49udpe$ape@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems What this discussion about judging seems to tell is that there needs to be a lot more work done on the aspect of judging in kiting. It needs to be done in a more professional and unbiased manner. Yes, judges are human and can make errors, just as referees in basketball and football or umpires in baseball, but it seem as though there is a lot of political judging going on in kiting. Of course, I could be completely wrong in my observations. But why did the "rules" change two weeks before the 95 World Cup as far as the flight order? Not that this made any difference in the scores, but what was the motivation for not letting the world champion team fly last in the flight order? Finally, what makes a person qualified to be a judge? Is there any certification that judge needs to go throught? Sincerely Larry Bush = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:12:17 -1000 From: Bob Pleasant Message-Id: <204617089wnr@pleasant.demon.co.uk> Organization: None Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems I know that Skydance think that three flyers in a team is not enough. At the end of last season they were looking for a forth flyer but failed to find anyone suitable. In Ballet it is easier to create a dramatic display with more kites. There are probably problems with more than six flyers: The sky gets very full and crashes / tangles are more likely. Plus finding six good flyers that have the time and live close enough to practice is difficult. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Bob Pleasant EMail bob@pleasant.demon.co.uk | | | ----------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:13:23 -1000 From: navarrol@netcom.com (Larry Navarro) Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <49io7t$gk7@news.via.at>, Ernst Markus Kofler wrote: > >At World Cup VI some other things happened: > >- Aircraft won with a special composed music. >- Teams with 3, 4, 5 and 6 members were competing. >- The 6-team flew in precision only with 4 members. A 5-person team also flew their precision with only 4 members. > >Question: Isn't it much harder to fly with 4 or 5 than with only 3 kites? Yes it is! >Especially the compulsories (e.g. Arc de triomphe, Basket) can be flown much >easier with 3 kites than with 4. So: Do the judges have to give a penalty to 3 >man teams and on the other way, to judge teams with 5 pilots better? Judges are supposed to score the compulsories based on the accuracy of the figure and the spacing and synchronization of the kites, regardless of the number of kites. > >Question: If a team comes down after 2:30 and had flown perfectly until this >point (sharp corners, difficulties, ...): can they get a good result then? Obviously they can- witness the fact that Airkraft had two assisted relaunches and a mangled axel and still took first place in Australia. Isn't >the risk in the last 1:30 higher, because the pilots get tired? Wouldn't it be >easier simply to write a routine with only 2:30 then? Not necessarily. It could be more difficult to showcase your team's talents in such a short time frame > >Question: You have a perfect precision-routine. A musician with modern equipment >comes along (sampler, synthesizer) and writes the music for this precision >routine. With the synthesizer, it's very easy to play special effects for >special maneuvers of the kites. Will in future the team with the best musician >win the ballet competition? Not if they can't fly the routine well. > >Question: What is the perfect team size? 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 20?? 4 is probably the best combination for getting high level, accomplished flyers to do the same thing cohesively, ie. fly a routine well. What are the >differences in judging teams of different sizes? The more pilots, the harder? >Tsunami's flight (6 members) most time looked like two copies of Skydance (3 >members), sometimes mirrored, sometimes parallel. My biases will begin to show here, as I am a member of the '95 Tsunami team. Did it really look that simple? We must be better than I thought. And I think Skydance flies bitchin', so I'll take that comparison as a compliment. Teams with 10 kites could fly >like two teams of 5 persons. How can a team of 10 be compared with a team of 3? Don't count on it. As the number of flyers goes up, the difficulty in making things look right goes up exponentially. Anyone who's flown team can tell you that it's hard enough finding 3 or 4 flyers of comparable skill who can actually stand each other long enough and have the talent to put together a decent routine. Now try to do that with 5,6 or 10... Not Gonna Happen! Which is what is so amazing about what Randy Joe has been able to do with the Tsunami 6 for the past years. Every year there are new team members, and always very little practice time. This year's team practiced a total of 14 flying days over a 5 month period. Compare that with some of the teams at World Cup who were practicing 30 hours a week! And then he makes it look so easy that people don't realize the complexity or technical difficulty involved in making it happen. If Tsunami 6 does not fly again, I don't think you will ever see another 6 person team qualify for World Cup, much less win it. Not to mention that the 10-person team wouldn't even fit on a standard field. They get D-Q'd for boundary violations every time. >Question: Is it fair to grant a team with 6 persons, to fly precision only with >4? Now say, if the ballet with more kites can reach a higher score, will then >teams fly ballet with 8 kites and precision with only 3 kites? If it is deemed as not being fair, and the rules are changed, then the higher numbered teams would have little chance of winning any World Cup events, due to the low scores they'd get in precision. So why would anyone bother to try? The kiting world would be deprived of something special, I think. The AKA rules say that you cannot change number of flyers in the middle of a program, so if you fly your compulsories with 4, you must fly your freestyle portion with 4 and cannot increase flyers to get an advantage. There is no rule that states that you cannot change number of flyers from one program to the next, ie. fly 4 in precison and 6 in ballet. Like I said, my opinion is biased. Larry Navarro = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 06:17:23 -1000 From: Simo Salanne Message-Id: <49v6uj$t8c@ankka.csc.fi> Organization: Centre for Scientific Computing Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) wrote: > >Some performers, particularly teams, are now "manipulating" their >music even more on computer sound boards. > >I have seen teams prepare slower or faster versions of the *same* >music for different wind conditions. The music almost sounds the >same, but the difference is just enough to make flying it possible >in light and heavy winds. > We recently discussed in STACK Rules and regulations committee about which audio equipment should be allowed as a source for ballet events. It is possible and not too expensive (?)- today - to have a portable PC with midi-soundcard on the field, connected to the PA-system. Then the "audio operator" can change the tempo of music *on the fly* while the competitor is performing, to adapt the the music to the wind conditions. >So where do we draw the line? My opinion is that we simply >judge what we see and how well it relates top what we hear. > We can at least restrict the audio sources to constant speed sources like tape and audio CD. Simo.Salanne@csc.fi = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:37:21 -1000 From: Martin Thomas Message-Id: <818120241snz@fizz.demon.co.uk> Organization: Fizz Sport Kites Subject: Team kiting: Judging problems It would appear that the judging problems and flying difficulties increase almost exponentially with additional team fliers. Does this mean to say that the, so-far, un-mentioned line judges and field directors would need to replicate themselves? How many stop/start time functions do you have on your stopwatch? ;-) I suppose the answer is, as always, 42. Martin Thomas -- World Cup Field Director 1994 plus other assorted European events 1989-1995 Martin@fizz.demon.co.uk http//dcpu1.cs.york.ac.uk:6666/~tom/new-fizz.html FIZZ SPORT KITES - Tel/Fax +44 (0)127 453 2899 (Manufacturing/trade enquiries) THE LEADING EDGE KITE COMPANY - Tel/Fax +44 (0)113 245 3223 (Retail enquiries) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:47:07 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <49tgeb$chj@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Eastern Oregon State College Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems >David Gomberg wrote: >BTW - 600f the Precision score is for compulsory >maneuvers, not thefreestyle performance. Steve Cseplo replied >Or, in League Style Precission, 80 423936s the required maneuvers >and 20 423936s for the transitions. Yes, but TEAMS don't fly league style. The point applies to teams or to individuals, but the context of the discussion was teams, so that's what I responded to. :) -- David Gomberg phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:33:19 -1000 From: mark@murder.compulink.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Message-Id: <49vt6s$juk@zinc.compulink.co.uk> Organization: damage Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems jim@oasis.icl.co.uk (Jim Cheetham) wrote: > > On the other hand, though, many of the more beautiful > pieces of music in this world were written specially for > a specific performer, and it is seen as acceptable for > singers to perform pieces that best show off *their* > abilities ... This question has come up before. My view is that it boils down to equality of opportunity. If it is decided that having a musician interpret a routine will nearly always convey a definite advantage, then those teams without access to such a facility could justifiably claim that the name of the game had been changed - a team would effectively be comprised of the fliers *and* the musical support, and the skill of the musician, not the fliers, might make the difference between winning and losing. I think this would definitely be undesirable. It might be a different matter if the music was actually created by the fliers themselves. On the other hand, its very difficult to argue that such an arrangement *will* convey a definite advantage. The 'quality' of the match between music and flight is surely a subjective thing, and just because a team ( including the musician ) thinks its excellent, doesn't mean to say that the judges will. I think that people frequently react negatively to music they aren't familiar with - this may act against the fliers interests. On balance, I can't yet see a problem in allowing specially composed music in competition. As regards the numbers of people in a team, I can see a case for ensuring that judging policies covering this area are stated openly and clearly in print ( i.e. 'All other things being equal, we will give more points to teams with more members' ), but other than that I can't see a serious problem. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ************************************ Final thoughts, as breath is taken, Fall to rhythm, and the Edge of pure obsession, Resting in the wind blown cradle, Nothing moves, the world is still... ************************************ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 05:51:00 -1000 From: torsten@kites.hanse.de (Torsten Schmitt) Message-Id: <5zG521Pr7YB@kites.hanse.de> Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems hayden1009@aol.com wrote: > Yes, it is much harder to fly figures cleanly with more kites, but it is > much easier to fly sloppier figures, too. As a judge, we don't penalize 3 > person teams, but if 3, 4 and 5 person teams fly the same figure with the > same precision, the 5-person team would get the higher points and each > additional person adds a level of difficulty. Remember, flying cleanly > means spacing, speed, straight lines, square corners, no line or ground > ticks, etc. You said that you're a judge in the AKA. Question to you: In the current AKA/STACK Rule Book Third Edition you'll find under ----- D.Components Highlights ------ following note: "Special Note: The number of competitors on a team, in and on itself, does not indicate a higher score. Teams are viewed and judged as a single entity" If you know the rule book well you can't give Ernst Markus your answer! If so I think it's unfair from your side as a judge to say that a 5 person team would get the higher points. Also I would like to ask you why we do have a rule book?????? "Teams must be comprised of three or more members". That's all in the rule book. I agree that large member teams would give a subjective influence to the judges. But good judges can work with these influence. For example: The three person Team Skydance from England won the Euro Cup 95'. Also they could get in World Cup 95' fourth place.......... So I think that Skydance must be a superb team, isn't it????????? Thanks God......they had good judges at Euro Cup and World Cup!!!! > I think that this question relates to how judging is done. It is on what > the group does and how well it does it. It is not just a count of members > for points. Again, as a judge I am looking for varied approaches to team > flying within a routine: a good mix of follow the leader, mirrored, > syncopated flying, and interactive flying, etc. Hmmmmm......interesting. Seems you're sometime a judge we all wish on the field. Greetings Torsten Torsten Schmitt National Director STACK Germany = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 04:19:29 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (SPC) Message-Id: <4a48ph$rbn@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <49tgeb$chj@ednet1.osl.or.gov>, David Gomberg wrote: >Yes, but TEAMS don't fly league style. >The point applies to teams or to individuals, but the context of the discussion >was teams, so that's what I responded to. Yes well, ah, gee. Seems I forgot that little point! :-) Sorry. Gentle breezes, Steve *************************************************** * I'm not a participant in any organized hobby... * * I'm a kiteflier! * ******************** aoxomoxoa ******************** http://server1.admin.gatech.edu/fac/steve/kiting/kiting.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:03:22 -1000 From: johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) Message-Id: Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) writes: > Question: You have a perfect precision-routine. A musician with modern > equipment comes along (sampler, synthesizer) and writes the music for > this precision routine. With the synthesizer, it's very easy to play > special effects for special maneuvers of the kites. Will in future the > team with the best musician win the ballet competition? What's so different than having a kitemaker with modern equipment make you a state of the art tweeked out set of performance kites with custom graphics, mesh brakes (of various sizes) and line sets. If you really wanted to even the field for all, you should make everyone fly the same kite to a single tune on a clapped out portable take deck. -- "Anne Bolin Got A Wedgie From Eating Limes", Claims Sean Penn KTZZ / Howard Stern Have Pencil Drawing -- Brian Johnsen johnsen@eskimo.com Seattle, Washington USA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:52:12 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Somewhere in this thread (and I can't find it), Simo writes about STACK having to consider whether it is fair to have someone controling a MIDI machine, to adjust the music dynamically to the wind. As presented, it sounds like you could make good argument against disallowing such interference. On the other hand, if someone were to bring along a real live musician who played live as part of the ballet with the team, we might open up a whole new vibrant area of expression. I wouldn't like to see *that* outlawed. Live music might indeed make me walk over to enjoy the performance, where often I just ignore this stuff... Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:27 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7sob$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Dear Jim! >>[Special composed music] > I don't have much experience of music-related performance > sport (ice-skating, synchro swimming, etc) but I seem to > note that the music is always some pre-existing piece. It is not. For example formation dancers also use special mixed music consisting of good parts from different pieces. > If this is the case, shouldn't it be made true for us flyers? Yes, the same has already become true. > It does remove the possibility of the musician doing the > interpreting, rather than the performers ... Sorry, alrady taking place in this scene. The team with the better musician has the better music. And has the better chance to create a good music to their already existing, perfect routine. This sport is becoming expensive. Musicians want money. Greetings, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:24 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7so7$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems sqedison@aol.com (SQEdison) wrote: Hi Susie! >HI: great post. I think you should write Sheri and Dave Arnold they are >the AKA sport kite chair people and do a good deal of Judging. They helps >write the rules and you have some good thoughts that could help change the >rules to be more fair to everyone. I have flown kites and judged for over >[..] >effect on the rules. Write to Sheri and Dave on the sport kite committe. I don't know their addresses. But I'm sure one of the American judges discussing with us will forward this thread to them. Greetings from Vienna! Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:52:12 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Somewhere in this thread (and I can't find it), Simo writes about STACK having to consider whether it is fair to have someone controling a MIDI machine, to adjust the music dynamically to the wind. As presented, it sounds like you could make good argument against disallowing such interference. On the other hand, if someone were to bring along a real live musician who played live as part of the ballet with the team, we might open up a whole new vibrant area of expression. I wouldn't like to see *that* outlawed. Live music might indeed make me walk over to enjoy the performance, where often I just ignore this stuff... Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this-> | Subject: service /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ | http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome Next time you visit KFS, download the bookmark file. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:30 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7soe$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Hi Richard! >>[Special composed music] >I would have thought that a well-executed routine carried out to a piece of >music the judges are familiar with will have more 'punch' than an identical >routine carried out to a 'bespoke' piece. With a 'known' piece of music you >anticipate the next phrase, and appreciate the way the routine can match it. A "good judge" doesn't care about the music, does he? Greetings, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:32 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7sog$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Hi SPC! >>- Skydance crashed in their precision routine after 2:30, but got most points. >As long as the precribed penalty was assessed, no "problem" from >this corner. After all, that is what penalties are for. >Now maybe one can argue that the penalty for a hard crash is not >severe enough, but normally it throws your timing off sufficiently >to mess what follows up. Skydance had a line-break. They had to stop. If a Formula 1 car blows a tire and slowly has to roll to the pit before starting again with full power, it will never have the chance to win the race. >>Question: What is the perfect team size? >Four. Why? >>Question: Is it fair to grant a team with 6 persons, to fly precision only with 4? >As long as they fly only Precission, yes. If it is a combined event, as I >stated before, no. It is not fair to drop members off for a portion of >the competition. >I suppose that will have to be addressed. Thank you for your answers! Greetings, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:20 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7so5$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems hayden1009@aol.com (Hayden1009) wrote: Dear ? Hayden! Thank you for your thoughts to my questions. To all readers: With my questions I donot want to know what is written in the rulebook. I want to know, what you think about the questions. The answers could be the input for changes on the existing rules. I don't want to change the rulebook this winter. But maybe, in our discussions new ideas come up that would be interesting to be included in the rulebook. >"Question: Isn't it much harder to fly with 4 or 5 than with only 3 kites? >Especially the compulsories (e.g. Arc de triomphe, Basket) can be flown >much >easier with 3 kites than with 4. So: Do the judges have to give a penalty >to 3 >man teams and on the other way, to judge teams with 5 pilots better?" >Yes, it is much harder to fly figures cleanly with more kites, but it is >much easier to fly sloppier figures, too. Why do teams fly sloppy figures? Because the pilots want to rest. But OK, you're right. So check out the new programs of the top 6 teams in World Cup VI. The programs almost have no sloppy parts, have they? >As a judge, we don't penalize 3 >person teams, but if 3, 4 and 5 person teams fly the same figure with the >same precision, the 5-person team would get the higher points and each >additional person adds a level of difficulty. Remember, flying cleanly >means spacing, speed, straight lines, square corners, no line or ground >ticks, etc. Yeah. The probability of a fault is in a team with 4 at 33igher than at a team with 3 kites, isn't it? ;-) If a 3 and a 4 team flys a figure perfectly, will they get the same score? Or will the 4 Person Team win? [Answer expected] Is this fair? >[Write a routine with 2:30?] >Judging is on what is done, not what isn't done. If you fly short, you cannot do so many faults. >routine and another goes the distance to 4 or 5 minutes, presumably the >longer routine would have more in it and score higher. Then they have to show all of their tricks to fill 5 min. Some tricks are harder. Some probably won't work perfectly. In a short routine, they could only fly the tricks that work well. >Of course, the >converse is also true and you pointed out the longer routine has a greater >margin of error. That's exactly what I mean. >[Special composed music] >We don't judge the >music, but rather the flying to the music. What is the difference between >writing your own music (other than musical talent) and finding a truly >perfect piece to fly to? The difference is that, in fact, there IS NO perfect piece of music. Many songs have very good parts of perfect music. But none has a perfect start, a perfect fast part, a perfect hard part, a perfect trick part, a perfect slow part, a perfect final and a perfect "out!" part. And it's no problem first to write a program, then to find the "perfect pieces of music" to fit this program, then to add self composed (effect)-parts, and finally write a perfect start and landing effect. See what I mean? Everyone who sees Aircraft's new ballet, knows what I mean. >[Perfect team size] >I think that this question relates to how judging is done. It is on what >the group does and how well it does it. It is not just a count of members >for points. Again, as a judge I am looking for varied approaches to team >flying within a routine: a good mix of follow the leader, mirrored, >syncopated flying, and interactive flying, etc. The more kites, the harder it is to fly complex figures. With a team of 6, you can fly by far more complex figures than with only 3 kites. But you never can fly complex figures with 6 kites as accurate as a team of 3 can. >"Question: Is it fair to grant a team with 6 persons, to fly precision >only with >4? Now say, if the ballet with more kites can reach a higher score, will >then >teams fly ballet with 8 kites and precision with only 3 kites?" >This is a good questio Sorry, this was the end of your mail. Cheers, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:10 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7sns$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Dear readers! Thank you for your answers to my posting. I'll answer in one message so that there will not be too much mail traffic here. ___ First, my answer to David Gomberg: >>How do you kiters (especially team pilots) think about these questions? >These are good and interesting questions, but I am curious. Why are >you more interested in the opinions of team fliers, than of judges or >the spectators? The pilots see the things different from the judges. For example, each team pilot knows that it is much harder to fly in a team with 4 kites than in a team of 3. Everyone knows that it is much easier to get 3 pilots make the same moves rather than 4 or even 5 pilots. But the judges say that the number of kites has almost no influence on the result. Hayden1009 says: >As a judge, we don't penalize 3 person teams... In compulsories where 4 kites fly parallel, you have a much greater wind window with only three kites. Try to fly "knit one, pearl one" (Parallel straight up, diagonal down to the left, fly a circle upwards, and on the baseline back to the right side) with three, then with four kites. You'll check the difference. It's also much easier for the pilots to watch three kites simultaneously to hold the synchronicity than to watch four kites. As pilot #4 you only see kites #2, #3 and #4. If kite 2 makes a fault (e.g. not the same speed as kite #1), you will also do. If you have only 3 kites, this will not happen. During the season, my team (the KiteOholix) had trainingsessions sometimes with only three kites and we performed much better than with four, especially on compulsories. David's second question was about Skydance's crash in Hamm. >>- Skydance crashed in their precision routine after 2:30, but got most points. >If the performance ended, then the team should have received >a heavy mandatory .9 penalty against their artistic score. If they >"crashed" by contacting in the air, or hitting the ground and >relaunching, they should have received a mandatory .2 penalty >against their technical score. And on top of this, subjective >deductions should have been applied by the judges depending >on how much of a disruption the crash caused. A line broke. They had to come down. It was judged as an improper ending. But the routine was ready after 2:30, and this is quite short. Many teams have a routine that begins very hard and shows much good stuff. Then, after 2:30 they show a part where the judges can rest. Simple follows, formations and stuff. Simple, but if not perfectly flown, they get some points off. And then the final: Full power and high risk again. The pilots are tired and faults can happen much easier. Skydance had the good luck that their routine shows heavy stuff in the first 2:30. I've come to the result that it's really better to fly a short precision routine cause much less things can happen. Another answer of that kind comes from Hayden1009 (sorry I received only 94 lines of this message and miss the answer of my 5th question, plase could you forward this msg to me per email?). >Judging is on what is done, not what isn't done. If a team flys a 2:30 >routine and another goes the distance to 4 or 5 minutes, presumably the >longer routine would have more in it and score higher. Presumably, yes. But if the team writes the routine totally heavy like Skydance and also other teams in Europe did, it will work, won't it? >Of course, the converse is also true and you pointed out the longer routine >has a greater margin of error. That's what I mean. ___ Next was the question about the ballet routine. Team pilots know that it is hard to find a good music. The music should be rhytmic, fast, slow, loud, quiet, shall have special effects with a wide range of possibilities for interpretation. Everyone who has written a routine knows that it is possible to write a ballet routine without music. Kiters can imagine music playing to a routine as well as they can imagine kites flying when they hear music. If a team has sound samples of good music they can very easy write a program for such a short part of music (45 sec?). Many teams have good ideas for starting sequences and simply need the right music to fly to. So if you have a sample cd of the apollo start, you have already great stuff. There you hear sequences like "31 seconds", "10 seconds", "4-3-2-1 liftoff!", "all engines running" and stuff. It's quite simple for a dude with good music equipment to load these sounds into his keyboard and to play it right in the moment the team wants it. Aircraft also used the Apollo sounds ("10 seconds") and made a great music. I'm sure, next year they will not be the only team with a special composed music. >We don't judge the music, but rather the flying to the music. >What is the difference between writing your own music (other than musical >talent) and finding a truly perfect piece to fly to? The perfect piece to fly to has not yet been written. Perfect music has cascaded effects depending on the team size. A perfect landing sequence has never been composed yet, but is no problem for a synthesizer. Gertraud answered: >No judge will ask you how you made your routine. The judge only decides >about the whole performance, if the music is interpreted well, if the >manouvers are flown precise, if the timing and spacing were good. The team >must fulfill thoser requirements to get good scores. If there is a good >musician in the team making the ballet routine, it is certainly a very good >chance, but this routine must be flown by someone. And if the team members >cannot fly this musically very good routine it will not win. So you see: With your special composed music you can take the best parts of different pieces music and write a program for it. Or you write the program at first, and then find the good parts and effects for your routine. What I wanted to say is, that it is easier to write a program to a special composed music. But we kiters are not the only ones who say this: Formation dancers use these techniques as well as Rock'n roll dancers. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:31 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7sof$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Hi David! >>How do you kiters (especially team pilots) think about these questions? >These are good and interesting questions, but I am curious. Why are >you more interested in the opinions of team fliers, than of judges or >the spectators? Because judges say "The rulebook says, ...". I want to hear opinions of the competitors to let new ideas come up how to deal with this problem. I find the internet newsgroups offer the best way for a platform where everyone can say what he thinks - and everyone has enough time to think. Each message offers new views, new interesting views. After some time the judges will join in. I'm sure many of them let us discuss first and see what's coming out. As kiting is still a very new sport, there are still many things left to be discussed about. Greetings, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:29 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7sod$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Hi! >If it is decided that having a musician interpret a routine will >nearly always convey a definite advantage, then those teams without >access to such a facility could justifiably claim that the name of the >game had been changed - a team would effectively be comprised of the >fliers *and* the musical support, and the skill of the musician, not >the fliers, might make the difference between winning and losing. I >think this would definitely be undesirable. It might be a different >matter if the music was actually created by the fliers themselves. Yes. But we are in this situation already. Most teams mix parts of different pieces together. But now, a new area has started: The parts between the samples are played with Synthesizers. And additionally, to give a reason for a special maneuver within a part where now maneuvers are given by the music, they play special effects with the synthesizer. That's what was seen at the ballet of the world champion, Aircraft. Greetings, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:25 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7soa$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Dear Gertraud! >Its a little bit strange for me to answer to your mail via rec.kite, >because we often meet in Vienna on the flying flied. On our flying field we have know approximately 10 cm snow at a temperature of -20C. This sucks! ;-) >>Question: Isn't it much harder to fly with 4 or 5 than with only 3 kites? >>Especially the compulsories (e.g. Arc de triomphe, Basket) can be flown much >>easier with 3 kites than with 4. So: Do the judges have to give a penalty to >>3 man teams and on the other way, to judge teams with 5 pilots better? >In the rulebook is written ... >[..] >teams with an even numer of (wo)men can fly nice symetric figures, the >special effect from 5 (wo)men teams is splitting in groups of 2/3 and so >on. Each group has its difficulties and advantages. There is no need to >judge a team with 3 members in an other way than the 5 or 6 (wo)men team. >They have decided to fly in this formation, they knew what they did. So they will never have the chance to fly the cascade, the arc or the basket with the same high score as a 3 man team, will they? What I wanted to show up with my question is, that it's a great challenge to find a way to judge teams of different sizes in a fair manner. >>[Come down after 2:30] >For the judge it is not essential how long the team flies or how tired it >is. Within a 1:30 routine you can fly a certain amount of maneouvres. In a >3:00 routine there are aproximately twice as much manoeuvres - you have more >chances to show your abilities. And what is in the next 1:30? Then you can do different things: You can fly sloppy (-). Or you can repeat things (-). Or you can show the rest of your tricks. Probably the ones that my lead to a crash (many teams have an axle-sequence at the end!). Crashing at the end is worse than landing earlier but proper. But landing earlier is not worse than flying till the end with a proper axle sequence. The judges might say "the axles were quite OK, not perfect, not totally synchroneous, but quite OK." So no additional points, same result as if the would not have flown it. >>Will in future the team with the best musician >>win the ballet competition? >No judge will ask you how you made your routine. The judge only decides >about the whole performance, if the music is interpreted well, if the >manouvers are flown precise, if the timing and spacing were good. You're right. That's why more and more pilots will use edited music. >>Question: What is the perfect team size? 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 12, 20?? >Why should the number of team members be limited? Isn`t it nice to have >different team sizes Yes, it is nice. But we're not here to fly nice, we are competing. >in one competition. Isnt it interesting to compare >the different formations in 3,4,5 person teams? Interesting, yes. It's also interesting to make a carrace with 5 race-trucks and 5 Formula 1 cars. It would be interesting, how often the Formula 1 would overtake the trucks. >How boring would it be to >have only 4 person team and all are copying Airkraft because it seems to be >the best way to win. Only a few teams copied Aircraft in this season. To copy Aircraft in the next season is a great challenge for teams that do not yet have a complex routine. But most teams already have one. Aircraft was one of the last teams to come up with a really complex routine. What I want to show up is that it is almost impossible to find a way to judge teams of different sizes in a fair way. Team kiting is a very new sport. When cars were new (around 1910), the so-called "carraces" took place. Cars were racing against each other, equal which ones. Soon they realized that it no longer makes sense to race with a 1 cylinder against 8 cylinders. The result is, that today we have maybe more than 100 different classes of carracing kategories. Maybe in some years we will fly the "Northshore Radical 4 Team Cup" and the "Trick Kite Cup" and the "Open Mega Team Cup" and the "Reactor Cup 5 Team". Just an idea... Greetings, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:22 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7so6$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Dear Torsten! >> but if 3, 4 and 5 person teams fly the same figure with the >> same precision, the 5-person team would get the higher points and each >> additional person adds a level of difficulty. >"Special Note: The number of competitors on a team, in and on itself, does >not indicate a higher score. Teams are viewed and judged as a single >entity" Isn't it right that each additional person adds a level of difficulty? With your point of view, a 6 person team could never get a high score flying "THE CASCADE" for example. The other way round, this is a very easy to perform figure for a 3 person team. Is this fair? >If you know the rule book well you can't give Ernst Markus your answer! >If so I think it's unfair from your side as a judge to say that a 5 person >team would get the higher points. Also I would like to ask you why we do >have a rule book?????? So my question: Why do you still work on the rulebook? Maybe because of discussions like that one? >"Teams must be comprised of three or more members". That's all in the rule >book. Now come down and be honest to yourself: Can this be right? Is this fair? That a team with 6 persons has to fly the same compulsories as a team with 3 persons and be judged exactly the same way? >I agree that large member teams would give a subjective influence to the >judges. But good judges can work with these influence. For example: >The three person Team Skydance from England won the Euro Cup 95'. >Also they could get in World Cup 95' fourth place.......... >So I think that Skydance must be a superb team, isn't it????????? Yes, indeed they are. Do you have the score sheet for the precision event? I would be interested in the results of the compulsories. Skydance succeeded with an advantage of 0,66 points. Did they fly the better basket maybe? What I also know is that Skydance fought with overpowered kites in the precision event. Greetings, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:34 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4a7soi$gfj@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Hi David again! >>A 3-person team (Skydance) became European Champion >>even though they crashed in their precision routine after 2:30 >>and got the most points. >I'm not sure whether "crash" in this case means the performance >stopped, or continued in spite of the crash. Yes, the crash stopped the performance. A line broke and they had to come down. >If the performance ended, then the team should have received >a heavy mandatory .9 penalty against their artistic score. If they >"crashed" by contacting in the air, or hitting the ground and >relaunching, they should have received a mandatory .2 penalty >against their technical score. .9 and .2, why? Because it's written in the rulebook? I don't want to know what the rulebook says. I want to know, what the pilots mean. Judges only see the rulebook. And the rulebook isn't perfect in all clauses, is it? So please write your opinion about what is fair and not what they wrote down some years ago in a book that is discussed at every event. Greetings, Ernst = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 04:03:48 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <4a9gk4$m73@ankka.csc.fi> Organization: STACK Finland Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >Somewhere in this thread (and I can't find it), Simo writes about STACK >having to consider whether it is fair to have someone controling a MIDI >machine, to adjust the music dynamically to the wind. Actually we were *discussing* which audio equipment are mandatory to be supported by event organiser. At the moment it's just casette tape. >As presented, it sounds like you could make good argument against >disallowing such interference. On the other hand, if someone were >to bring along a real live musician who played live as part of the ballet >with the team, we might open up a whole new vibrant area of expression. >I wouldn't like to see *that* outlawed. It's "outlawed" at the moment; RB says the competitor has to bring his audio *tape* (CD is optional, if event organiser wants to support the format). How about naming the band as "audio tape":-) >Live music might indeed make me walk over to enjoy the performance, where >often I just ignore this stuff... Personally I would love to fly to live music. However, If we make live music a standard option, it will yield the sport coming more and more expensive... and adding "judging problems". Another way to go is to say everybody flies to the same standard pieces(s) of music, much like in sport dancing? I agree it would be good entertainment having a live band playing for all the competitors. The key question is, wheter the musicians would adopt *their* interpretation to flying (that would be fun, too), or as now, the competitor flies to the music. Simo P.S. This thread is the best I can remember for a long time, thank's Ernst for starting and keeping it alive! -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi STACK Finland & STARRC Chair ==================================================================== PGP public key on home page http://www.kfs.org/kites/simo/simo.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 01:38:36 -1000 From: Peter Leclercq Message-Id: Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Andrew Beattie wrote: > disallowing such interference. On the other hand, if someone were > to bring along a real live musician who played live as part of the ballet > with the team, we might open up a whole new vibrant area of expression. > I wouldn't like to see *that* outlawed. > > Live music might indeed make me walk over to enjoy the performance, where > often I just ignore this stuff... If I am not mistaken, team Lucky Landing Albatros flew a Freestyle routine (formerly innovative) at the Euro Cup in Hamm, with live music. I think they even flew their kites and played music as well. That's entertainment!! don't walk just fly Peter Pan team highlife = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:09:00 -1000 From: torsten@kites.hanse.de (Torsten Schmitt) Message-Id: <5zS6365r7YB@kites.hanse.de> Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Hi all, may be my posting comes a second time. If so.....I'm sorry!!! --------------------------------------------------------------- hayden1009@aol.com wrote: > Yes, it is much harder to fly figures cleanly with more kites, but it is > much easier to fly sloppier figures, too. As a judge, we don't penalize 3 > person teams, but if 3, 4 and 5 person teams fly the same figure with the > same precision, the 5-person team would get the higher points and each > additional person adds a level of difficulty. Remember, flying cleanly > means spacing, speed, straight lines, square corners, no line or ground > ticks, etc. You said that you're a judge in the AKA. Question to you: In the current AKA/STACK Rule Book Third Edition you'll find under ----- D.Components Highlights ------ following note: "Special Note: The number of competitors on a team, in and on itself, does not indicate a higher score. Teams are viewed and judged as a single entity" If you know the rule book well you can't give Ernst Markus your answer! If so I think it's unfair from your side as a judge to say that a 5 person team would get the higher points. Also I would like to ask you why we do have a rule book?????? "Teams must be comprised of three or more members". That's all in the rule book. I agree that large member teams would give a subjective influence to the judges. But good judges can work with these influence. For example: The three person Team Skydance from England won the Euro Cup 95'. Also they could get in World Cup 95' fourth place.......... So I think that Skydance must be a superb team, isn't it????????? Thanks God......they had good and fair judges at Euro Cup and World Cup!!!! > I think that this question relates to how judging is done. It is on what > the group does and how well it does it. It is not just a count of members > for points. Again, as a judge I am looking for varied approaches to team > flying within a routine: a good mix of follow the leader, mirrored, > syncopated flying, and interactive flying, etc. Hmmmmm......interesting. Seems you're sometime a judge we all wish on the field. ;-)) Greetings Torsten Torsten Schmitt National Director STACK Germany = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:48:34 -1000 From: hayden1009@aol.com (Hayden1009) Message-Id: <4aafc2$7m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems The Bag Ladies flew to live music, with some protests from other quad teams. It was interesting and our approach was that we we doing performance art, to the shagrin of a competing team. It was a blast, but we really needed drums (you know a beat) and maybe a piano/organ (all the guys with the equipment wouldn't bring it on the beach, so fussy :-) ; the guitar just isn't full enough. Then there was the matter of our singer cue-ing us in the lyrics when he was going to end. It was fun, some of the most fun I've had competing; but it just isn't polished enough to be serious. To get dedicated musicians to practice enough with you to seriously fly to live music is more than I can imagine. Alice Hayden (co-captian of the Bag Ladies) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:19:18 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <4a9vj6$90o@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Eastern Oregon State College Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems DG writes: >If the performance ended, then the team should have received >a heavy mandatory .9 penalty against their artistic score. If they >"crashed" by contacting in the air, or hitting the ground and >relaunching, they should have received a mandatory .2 penalty >against their technical score. Ernst replies: >.9 and .2, why? Because it's written in the rulebook? I don't >want to know what the rulebook says. I want to know, what the >pilots mean. Judges only see the rulebook. And the rulebook >isn't perfect in all clauses, isit? So please write your opinion about what is fair >and not what they wrote down some years ago in a book that is >discussed at every event. The original question was whether the result was "fair". This is a difficult term to define. However, the purpose of the rules is to produce the most "fair" result possible. So my first question was whether the judges followed the rules. If the rules were followed, and the result was not "fair" than we may need to consider more rule changes. Why .9 and .2?? Mandatory penalties were developed to apply *consistent* penalties for certain clear infractions. In the older days, a kite might crash and end a performance. Some judges would give a large deduction form the score, others would give a small deduction. Now, with this rule, all judges score the crash the same. Is it "fair"? I don't know. But I do think it is an improvement. And the only way to continue to make improvements is to update the rule book. Otherwise, you will have different rules at each event - and that certainly wouldn't be "fair" to the pilots. DG writes: > Why are you more interested in the opinions of team >fliers, than of judges or the spectators? Ernst replies: >Because judges say "The rulebook says, ...". I want to hear opinions of the >competitors to let new ideas come up how to deal with this problem. Discussion like this help. But I also think it is important to include more than just the pilots. Spectators, organizers, and judges, and other staff are all part of the sport. And they ALL have good ideas. That's why the rules committee here in the USA includes fliers, judges, organizers, and staff. -- David Gomberg phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:53:04 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4ad91q$53k@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Dear Andrew! >Somewhere in this thread (and I can't find it), Simo writes about STACK >having to consider whether it is fair to have someone controling a MIDI >machine, to adjust the music dynamically to the wind. It is not fair in Team Ballet, but in Freestyle you can do this. >As presented, it sounds like you could make good argument against >disallowing such interference. On the other hand, if someone were >to bring along a real live musician who played live as part of the ballet >with the team, we might open up a whole new vibrant area of expression. >I wouldn't like to see *that* outlawed. This year, the "Crazy Albatrosses" flew a kind of ballet at Euro Cup 1995 in Freestyle competition. It was a combination of live music and kiteflight. And when the wind was low or the kites had a problem, they simply repeated the same sequence of music. So this was really a new approach to team kiting. >Live music might indeed make me walk over to enjoy the performance, where >often I just ignore this stuff... Check them out, dude! Cheers, Ernst G'day, mate! Ernst Markus Kofler emk@via.at Team "Kite-O-holix" Pair "Just4Fun" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 01:09:00 -1000 From: Joachim_Wiechmann@ol2.maus.de (Joachim Wiechmann) Message-Id: <199512091309.a42266@ol2.maus.de> Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Ernst, EMK> But we're not here to fly nice, we are competing. interesting view. Are we going to get serious now? Whom do you expect to be interested in your show then? Who will support the events when there are no spectators? EMK> Maybe in some years we will fly the "Northshore Radical 4 Team Cup" and the EMK> "Trick Kite Cup" and the "Open Mega Team Cup" and the "Reactor Cup 5 Team". And noone will be watching. To me flying kites means having fun, playing with the wind and meeting people who share this spirit. From your writing I get the feeling that there is not much fun in what you do. What are those competitions good for, then? There can only be one team winning, but this doesn't mean that the rest have all lost. EMK> This sucks! Then change it! :-) Joachim --- Joachim Wiechmann, Brooklandsweg 12a, 26203 Wardenburg, Germany email: joachim_wiechmann@ol2.maus.de (no mail >64k, please) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:27:40 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (SPC) Message-Id: <4aa02s$lmh@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <4a7sob$gfj@news.via.at>, Ernst Markus Kofler wrote: >This sport is becoming expensive. Oh, it's *been* expensive! ') Steve = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:37:19 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (SPC) Message-Id: <4aa0kv$rj7@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article , Andrew Beattie wrote: >Live music might indeed make me walk over to enjoy the performance, where >often I just ignore this stuff... Sure. Why not? Allow live music. But I think if a team wants to do this, then it should be up to the team to provide all set up for the musician's needs. The only thing the the organizer would need to provide is a way to input the stereo output from the musicians to the pa system. It wouldn't be fair to expect the organizer to provide a fully equiped sound stage now would it? Besides, it would be awful expensive. Ah, I can see it now. Wait a minute, we got a problem with mic #5. Can't fly yet! '-) As I recall, gynastics had a provission for the competitors providing a pianist way back when and they went away from it due to the inherent problems associated with live music and providing a piano. But hey, it might be interesting. Impractical, but interesting. Steve *************************************************** * I'm not a participant in any organized hobby... * * I'm a kiteflier! * ******************** aoxomoxoa ******************** http://server1.admin.gatech.edu/fac/steve/kiting/kiting.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:07:55 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (SPC) Message-Id: <4a9utr$a26@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <4a7so6$gfj@news.via.at>, Ernst Markus Kofler wrote: >>> but if 3, 4 and 5 person teams fly the same figure with the >(easy) figure for a 3 person team. Is this fair? If they fly it equally well, then both teams should score the same, regardless of the number of team members. To me this is completely and unequivocably *fair*. My $.02 worth, Steve *************************************************** * I'm not a participant in any organized hobby... * * I'm a kiteflier! * ******************** aoxomoxoa ******************** http://server1.admin.gatech.edu/fac/steve/kiting/kiting.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:14:22 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (SPC) Message-Id: <4a9v9u$dm1@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <4a7soe$gfj@news.via.at>, Ernst Markus Kofler wrote: >A "good judge" doesn't care about the music, does he? Yes one does have to "care about the music". This is because the kite's motion is supposed to reflect the tempo and mood of the music. Something I *still* don't have down. When one does not "care about the music", or more appropriately, what the music is doing and conveying, then the music is ignored. Taking the music away one winds up with another event...called Precission. Perhaps what you really mean to say is that a good judge should not be predjudiced either for or against a particular form of music or a particular piece of music. Not meant to be a flame. Steve *************************************************** * I'm not a participant in any organized hobby... * * I'm a kiteflier! * ******************** aoxomoxoa ******************** http://server1.admin.gatech.edu/fac/steve/kiting/kiting.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:22:10 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (SPC) Message-Id: <4a9voi$ijn@acmex.gatech.edu> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <4a7sog$gfj@news.via.at>, Ernst Markus Kofler wrote: >If a Formula 1 car blows a tire and slowly has to roll to the pit before >starting again with full power, it will never have the chance to win the race. Oh, don't say that! '-) I'll take Schumaker in a Williams to run down the rest of the field in this senario. Especially if it happened near the pit entrance. For that mater, what about Villenue (sp?) in the 95 Indy 500 making up 2 laps? '-) >>>Question: What is the perfect team size? >>Four. >Why? Because it is my opinion. To elaborate, four gives you the opportunity to execute the most demanding of manuveres with out the complication of additional fliers and still have them look OK. Sometimes this does not happen when 3 are used (ie, the manuver does not look as good). But basically it is my opinion. Steve PS: To bad Michael is in a red car this year. But maybe the prancing horse will be back. Besides, they paid him enough, didn't they? (Or was that Marlboro who paid him?) '-) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 06:05:34 -1000 From: sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <4ahkse$h1s@netope.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University - OIT/NSD Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems I've been watching this thread with lots of interest, but haven't had much time recently (life got complicated again, why does this keep happening?). Now, while the boss is in a meeting... Live Music ---------- Ice skating used to allow live music and there was a long tradition of Soviet skaters who had piano music. One of the problems with this, is that the pianist was an integral part of the performance. Not only could the music be varied to highlight certain tricks and such, but the music could compensate for the individual performance. Say that the performer was obviously tiring as the routine went on. The pianist could slow down to compensate. Or suppose that the performer obviously going to nail a move, the pianist could improvise something really dramatic to coincide with the move. The same thing is certainly possible with kite performances. This could make kite performances really dramatic and exciting. But for competition, it would give the folks who could afford to have live musicians play a definite advantage. Currently, the rules are interpreted to say that a team consists of the flyers on the field, and that all team members must fly, i.e. you can't have an on the field captain making the calls who isn't also flying. Seems to me that having musicians, or someone controlling a computer that can change the music in real time, is adding people to the team who aren't flying. While there is nothing inherently wrong with this, it is contrary to the current implementation of the rules. Sloppy figures: --------------- Both Ron Reich and Randy Joe have given me this advice and I pass it along to others. The figures are the most important part of a team's precision performance. Almost always the figures are performed first. If a team nails the figures, then the judges will be impressed and ready to really watch the freestyle. If the figures are done with precision and purpose, the judges are more likely to view the freestyle as if it were done with precision and purpose. On the other hand, if the figures are done poorly, then the judges might not be as alert during the freestyle, and might miss interesting moves. A wide turn that was done on purpose to correct for speed or placement but be thought of as sloppy. Why don't teams spend more time on the figures? The figures change >From competition to competition, so the team must work on different figures for each competition. Besides figures aren't as much fun as the freestyle portion. Is bigger better? ----------------- Like many things in life, bigger isn't necessarily better, but is often more impressive. Tsunami's stalled, trapped, weave (or whatever it is called) is one of the most impressive moves that I have ever seen. For a while I was wondering what real advantage 6 team members had, when I saw this move, I had no more questions about it. My experience with team flying has shown me that a three person team, because of the reduced opportunities for dramatic kite interactions, has to have greater skill, both flying and kite choreography, than 4 member teams, if the smaller team wants to out score the larger team. Oops! ----- My boss is back, back to work... ;-) -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 90 Melrose Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Arlington, MA 02174 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-646-1925 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:45:05 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4aicno$ngu@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Hi Steve! >>If a Formula 1 car blows a tire and slowly has to roll to the pit before >>starting again with full power, it will never have the chance to win the race. >Oh, don't say that! '-) [Schumacher, Villeneuve..] Yes, you're right. This example wasn't perfect. Take the same example with a motorbike race, then it works. John Cocinsky had a problem with his backwheel in Assen 1993 (Overheating problems). He had to go to the pit and fell back too far. To change a wheel on a motorbike takes much longer than on Formula I cars where it takes less than 10 seconds. >>>>Question: What is the perfect team size? >>>Four. >>Why? >[..] >But basically it is my opinion. I like your opinions. They sound reasonable. Ernst >PS: To bad Michael is in a red car this year. But maybe the prancing >horse will be back. Besides, they paid him enough, didn't they? >(Or was that Marlboro who paid him?) '-) I don't think that Ferrari will be back this season. I'm glad Gerhard Berger (Austrian like me) now sits in Michael's car! G'day, mate! Ernst Markus Kofler emk@via.at Team "Kite-O-holix" Pair "Just4Fun" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:45:03 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4aicnm$ngu@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Steve, >>A "good judge" doesn't care about the music, does he? >Perhaps what you really mean to say is that a good judge should not be >predjudiced either for or against a particular form of music or a >particular piece of music. Yes, that's what I wanted to say of course. Please apologize my problems with the english language. I'm Austrian and haven't so much possibilities for practicing my english, that's why I sometimes have difficulites to write down what I mean. G'day, mate! Ernst Markus Kofler emk@via.at Team "Kite-O-holix" Pair "Just4Fun" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:45:01 -1000 From: emk@via.at (Ernst Markus Kofler) Message-Id: <4aicnl$ngu@news.via.at> Organization: Vianet Austria Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Dear Joachim, >EMK> But we're not here to fly nice, we are competing. >interesting view. Are we going to get serious now? Whom do you expect to be >interested in your show then? Who will support the events when there are no >spectators? I'm sure, if the level of flight increases with the speed it did in the past two seasons, spectators will have fun even if there are only teams with even sizes flying. At Eurocup there were only two 3 person team, the rest were 4 person teams. And we had lots of spectators, hadn't we? >EMK> Maybe in some years we will fly the "Northshore Radical 4 Team Cup" and >the >EMK> "Trick Kite Cup" and the "Open Mega Team Cup" and the "Reactor Cup 5 >Team". >And noone will be watching. Like the different classes e.g. of Motorbike races? 125cc, 250cc, 500cc? Noone watching? >To me flying kites means having fun, playing with the wind and meeting people >who share this spirit. From your writing I get the feeling that there is not much fun >in what you do. What are those competitions good for, then? Of course I have fun in competing. Would I travel the whole world then? The thought I wanted to bring up is to think more professional and "think big" in a sport that is quite fast increasing and maybe soon becoming a real sport. And then we'll need new concepts to give the competitors a greater motivation. And if I'm competing in any sport I want to measure my abilities with those of other people. And therefore we need rules that make different performances measurable. >There can only be one team winning, but this doesn't mean that >the rest have all lost. The winner takes it all is the other way of sight. >EMK> This sucks! >Then change it! :-) Please don't fake the order of my comments. This phrase I wrote concerning the weather in Vienna. The original version was: >>On our flying field we have know approximately 10 cm snow at a temperature of >>-20C. This sucks! ;-) Joachim, I'm not sure if you read all the mails in this thread. We're discussing problems in judging and the development of this sport in general. What I want to bring in this discussion, are new ideas and points just to think about. >Maybe in some years we will fly the "Northshore Radical 4 Team Cup" and the >"Trick Kite Cup" and the "Open Mega Team Cup" and the "Reactor Cup 5 Team". >Just an idea... As you can see with the "Just an idea...", I want to bring in spontaneous thoughts in the discussion, that need not necessarily be my definite points of view. Do you also fly competitions? G'day, mate! Ernst Markus Kofler emk@via.at Team "Kite-O-holix" Pair "Just4Fun" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 18:06:41 -1000 From: hayden1009@aol.com (Hayden1009) Message-Id: <4aiv4h$hu5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems torsten@kites.hanse.de (Torsten Schmitt) writes: >hayden1009@aol.com wrote: >> Yes, it is much harder to fly figures cleanly with more kites, but it is >> much easier to fly sloppier figures, too. As a judge, we don't penalize 3 > >person teams, but if 3, 4 and 5 person teams fly the same figure with the > >same precision, the 5-person team would get the higher points and each > >additional person adds a level of difficulty. Remember, flying cleanly > >means spacing, speed, straight lines, square corners, no line or ground > >ticks, etc. >You said that you're a judge in the AKA. Question to you: > >In the current AKA/STACK Rule Book Third Edition you'll find under >"Special Note: The number of competitors on a team, in and on itself, does >not indicate a higher score. Teams are viewed and judged as a single entity" I am a judge at AKA and EL events, and I try to be a good and fair judge. Exactly, a larger team does not merit a higher score on the basis of it being the bigger team. But if I have a 4 flyer-team executing a perfect compulsory and a 3 flyer-team executing a perfect compulsory, the 4 flyer-team gets a higher score from me. I have taken a number of the ELF judging seminars and talked to other more experienced judges. I realized that I have to make my judging an accounting or the subconsious takes over. I have given 1st place scores to flyers flying music I abhore and I have not placed as highly flyers with music which speaks to my soul. Both cases break my heart. But Michael Moore showed me his technique of pluses and minuses for each beat/maneuver of a routine. And I believe that this approach makes me a fairer judge (and certainly removes music bias's). It makes the performances less enjoyable because I'm viewing them as an accountant rather than artist, but I figure it is the least I can do to support the sport when 5 poor suckers have to judge me when I fly in competition. > If you know the rule book well you can't give Ernst Markus your answer! Sorry, I think I can. I did. >If so I think it's unfair from your side as a judge to say that a 5 person >team would get the higher points. Also I would like to ask you why we do >have a rule book?????? Again 5 flyers making syncopated perfect 90' corners would get more +'s than 3 flyers would. After all, there were 2 more kites which just executed a perfect maneuver and 2 more spaces which were maintained, etc. >So I think that Skydance must be a superb team, isn't it????????? >Thanks God......they had good and fair judges at Euro Cup and World Cup!!!! I'ld love to see Skydance fly. I know how good Tsunami, UpRoar and Invisable Wind are, so based upon the finishes, Skydance (especially in light of an improper ending) must fly while walking on water :-) I would have loved to be a World Cup or Euro Cup but neither vacation time nor money is an unlimited commodity. > Seems you're sometime a judge we all wish on the field. ;-)) Was that on the field or buried under it, kidding aside: I am just an occassional judge, 1 or 2 competitions at AKA and EL events I attend. If you want the pro's response from the U.S.A., talk to Sherri & Dave Arnold or Mike Carrol or Able Ortega or Mike Moore all of whom I have deep respect for as judges. Alice Hayden -- who feels that you don't really have a right to question judging, unless you have bothered to read the rule book or taken a judging seminar. 8^) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:22:23 -1000 From: gengvall@aol.com (G Engvall) Message-Id: <4akkpf$b4s@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems In article <818120241snz@fizz.demon.co.uk>, Martin Thomas writes: >Does this mean to say that the, so-far, un-mentioned line judges and field >directors would need to replicate themselves? Absolutely. But wait ! You forgot the Pit Boss. And, who collects the tapes from which one of those multitudinous team members? Field Directors, Pit Bosses, and Line Judges are invisible until something goes wrong. Then the answer is, of course, 42. Gary Engvall, sometime Field Director in the Eastern League. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:16:00 -1000 From: Joachim_Wiechmann@ol2.maus.de (Joachim Wiechmann) Message-Id: <199512132216.a42420@ol2.maus.de> Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems Hi Ernst! EMK> The thought I wanted to bring up is to think more professional and "think big" EMK> in a sport that is quite fast increasing and maybe soon becoming a real sport. Okay, your point of view. I for myself don't want to spend my spare time with a professional attitude. There are other aspects in our sport that I prefer. And there are other ways of practicing a sport than just competing. EMK> The winner takes it all is the other way of sight. I'm afraid so. EMK> Do you also fly competitions? No, I don't. Does this really matter? Should I keep my nose out of this thread because I'm not directly involved? I am concerned about the professionality that creeps into the kiting world. This is not the way I like this sport, and I don't want to see it end in a way that the only way to be a kite flyer is to be a competitor as well. EMK> Joachim, I'm not sure if you read all the mails in this thread. We're discussing EMK> problems in judging and the development of this sport in general. Yes, I see. I just tried to add a different point of view, as this is my sport as well. But I will shut up now and listen to the heavy people. Joachim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:56:00 -1000 From: torsten@kites.hanse.de (Torsten Schmitt) Message-Id: <5zt72pRb7YB@kites.hanse.de> Subject: Re: Team kiting: Judging problems hayden1009@aol.com (Alice Hayden) wrote: > I am a judge at AKA and EL events, and I try to be a good and fair judge. Great!! > Exactly, a larger team does not merit a higher score on the basis of it > being the bigger team. Alice......these words are in the rule book!! > But if I have a 4 flyer-team executing a perfect > compulsory and a 3 flyer-team executing a perfect compulsory, the 4 > flyer-team gets a higher score from me. How will you compare that? Can you do that? Is there a rule for comparing different member (3/4/5 etc.) teams? In fact..there is no!!!!! > Again 5 flyers making syncopated perfect 90' corners would get more +'s > than 3 flyers would. After all, there were 2 more kites which just > executed a perfect maneuver and 2 more spaces which were maintained, etc. Then we have to renew the rule book. But there is no new until yet....so we must use the current one!! On the other hand...there is a special committee which works hard in these times for a new rule book. You should know that in the AKA. > Was that on the field or buried under it, kidding aside: I am just an > occassional judge, 1 or 2 competitions at AKA and EL events I attend. I agree...everyone must have practice. ;-) > If you want the pro's response from the U.S.A., talk to Sherri & Dave Arnold > or Mike Carrol or Able Ortega or Mike Moore all of whom I have deep > respect for as judges. Good idea! But on first step I want let you know my comments on your statements. They came here in a very public way. You know that I do have an other interpretation of the current rule book. Also I'm sure that I speak for many other. The only alternative I see is a new "good and fair" rule book. Let's all give the rule committee the necessary "power" and "support" for that!! Otherwise we all have in future some more "unnecessary" discussions! ;-)) > Alice Hayden > -- who feels that you don't really have a right to question judging, > unless you have > bothered to read the rule book or taken a judging seminar. 8^) Well....I flew many competitions in Germany, Belgium, Switzerlands, Netherlands, Austria, Luxemburg and Hawaii. I participated in several judging seminars. I judged in Germany, Belgium and Sweden. And....I can read the rule book. ;-)) Best greetings Torsten Torsten Schmitt National Director STACK Germany = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =