Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 20:04:03 -1000 From: kyteman@aol.com (Kyteman) Message-Id: <3416gj$s04@search01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? In article <34114e$8ej@earth.pylon.com>, rlhaas@pylon.com (Robin Haas) writes: > The main reason given was that they did not have the sponsorship necessary to make a go of the event. Believe it when you hear that registration fees don't cover the cost of putting an event on. IMHO, the downhill slide began back when everybody put cash prizes in the picture, then travel money and lodging and banquets and pins and free t-shirts etc etc in addition, and the proverbial good old kite festival--that used to take virtually nothing to put on--now costs an arm and a leg. I didn't think there was any going back, just the way there wasn't when sports car racing went commercial. But maybe there's hope--if all the sponsors bail out, we'll have to go back to flying for FUN, perish the thought! I can hardly wait! brooks leffler kyteman@aol.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 18:32:14 -1000 From: rlhaas@pylon.com (Robin Haas) Message-Id: <34114e$8ej@earth.pylon.com> Organization: The Pipeline Subject: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? I have been lurking on rec.kites for the past few weeks ( I enjoyed meeting some of you at the Washington State International Kite Festival last week) waiting to post anything until my Internet provider worked out a few bugs they were having with posting news articles. They say they have everything worked out so here goes. I have been a competitor and judge in stunt kite competitions for a number of years now. I have also been the event coordinator for the Washington State Stunt Kite Championship (WSSKC) for the two years of its existance. Over the last couple of years there have been some disturbing trends happening in our area. Washington and Oregon has seen the cancellation of five events this year. The main reason given was that they did not have the sponsorship necessary to make a go of the event. Believe it when you hear that registration fees don't cover the cost of putting an event on. They don't! Registration at the remaining events has dropped off significantly. Last year we had 53 competitors at WSSKC. This year we had only thirty. We seriously considered cancelling a few weeks before the event because our early registration was so low. In this area, I believe that if there are no new events added, it appears that there will only be two events for competitors in the 1995 season (WSSKC and the Northwest Regionals next June). I believe that competition helps keep skills sharp and is an essential part of the growth of sport kiting. However, as a person involved in many facets of the sport I would like to get a discussion going in this group to get some ideas of what needs to be done. I would like to pose a few questions to start things off and act as a springboard for discussion. 1. Why has there been such a dramatic decrease in the number of competitors on the West Coast? Is it the loss of events? The cost of attending? No interest? Too cutthroat? Changes in the AKA? Confusion surrounding having an AKA event and an American Kite Circuit event? 2. I understand that there are at least thirteen event on the East Coast. What is happening there that is not happening here? What are they doing right? Will they be able to continue with the same momentum or will it start to fizzle there also? 3. What can be done to make sport kiting more fun for competitors and spectators? (Competitors and spectators please respond to this one) We need to remember that without the spectators money sources will be reluctant to let go of the dollars. Well, that should be a good start. I don't want people to think that I am in a position to do anything about this. (Most of you probably don't have any idea who I am.) I am in the position however, to let the people making decisions know what kind of responses I get. What is done with it at that point is up to them. Please be aware that my intentions in doing this are of a genuine concern and interest in keeping sport kiting alive and I am NOT out to ruffle any feathers or put anyone or any organization on the spot. If we keep the discussion constructive, maybe some good can come of it. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 22:44:58 -1000 From: crowell@teleport.com (Carl Crowell) Message-Id: Organization: Kites By Carl Crowell Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? I can only speak from my pesonal experience: I often cliam to not enjoy watching dual line kites. this is not entirely true. I do not enjoy watching them at most compitions. the main reason is it is hard to enjoy the finer points of the flight when the sky is filled with garbage as far as the eye can see. When you go to a concert, you listen to music. Imagine the same concert playing Orff, with Motzart and Kenny G. thrown in in the background. Sure there are many people that enjoy both Motzart and Kenny G., but my desire and attendance is for the works of Orff. On the rare occations that I am able to abserve a practice event where the only kites in flight are a part of the performance, I tend to enjoy it a great deal. A vital question to be considered in the stunt kite hobby is what has held this sport back in general? Windsurfing has certainly been a more recent discovery and now has olympic recognition. Is windsurfing more of a sport than kitting? carl = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 09:20:07 -1000 From: uspehmev@ibmmail.COM Message-Id: Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: RE: WHAT'S HAPPENING TO STUNT KITE COMPETITIONS? ----------------------- Mail item text follows --------------- Robin Haas writes: What is the East Coast doing right? Organization maybe? We have Roger Chewning and Sky Festivals dedicated to running or helping to run competitions. That and a good number of dedicated event organizers all along the coast with a large pool of volunteers to help out. Competitors are kept informed of upcoming events through mailings and the Eastern League News.The one West Coast event I attended didn't seem nearly as organized and seemed to depend on a very small group of people to do everything. It's still expensive to compete here but the attendance of competitors has been good. Just an observation, Mark V = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 06:11:09 -1000 From: mgraves@leadingedg.win.net (Michael Graves) Message-Id: <994@leadingedg.win.net> Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? In article <3416gj$s04@search01.news.aol.com>, Kyteman (kyteman@aol.com) writes: > >I didn't think there was any going back, just the way there wasn't when >sports car racing went commercial. But maybe there's hope--if all the >sponsors bail out, we'll have to go back to flying for FUN, perish the >thought! > Bravo! Michael Graves = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:26:17 -1000 From: Dan Whitney Message-Id: Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? Being a competitor for the last 2 years I do see these problems, The expense of getting to an event is one reason for the decline The cost of lodging is another. I think there are solutions to problem if we try hard enought. For reducing the cost of lodging have a flier or fiers stay at your personal residence if they will do the same. Rental of a motor home might be another way of many fliers cutting the cost of getting to an event. Where does our fees for compitions goIf the kite flier knew where the money went and why the event lost money maybe we might not mind spending more for competition flying. If an event does lose money , why not have a event pool so the event that does lose money will have a place to get the money to pay its bills. Goes the other way too, if a event makes money let part of the profits go into the pool. Heres another idea , on every kite that is sold have a coupon attached to it the purchaser of the kite then sends it to the mfg. directing say $5.00 or some other amount to be sent to the money pool from the mfg. As far as competions are concerned , wherever possible have the spectators get involved in choosing the winner. Kind if a mix- regular kite judges and spectator judges make the final score. As for the decline in the comp. flier. It is all our own fault. we should encourage the new flier to try comp. flying, this is done right on our own flying field. Lets make it easy for the new flier, Some ways to make it happen Personally sponser the flier youself. Has any one done this? Lower the cost for novice and int. fliers - for there labor in trade. ?DELETE I have many ideas on events too mamy to list here. Let me know if I can help in any way. Dan Team Gone With THe Wind z = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 04:20:06 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <344num$2pm@search01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? In article , crowell@teleport.com (Carl Crowell) writes: I can only speak from my pesonal experience: I often cliam to not enjoy watching dual line kites. this is not entirely true. I do not enjoy watching them at most compitions. the main reason is it is hard to enjoy the finer points of the flight when the sky is filled with garbage as far as the eye can see. When you go to a concert, you listen to music. Imagine the same concert playing Orff, with Motzart and Kenny G. thrown in in the background. Sure there are many people that enjoy both Motzart and Kenny G., but my desire and attendance is for the works of Orff. ********************This is a point that many of us have been trying to make for years to organizers, especially in regards to two different pieces of music playing at the same time. How do we ever expect people who know nothing about what is going on to take any interest in what we're doing when we can barely appreciate it? On the rare occations that I am able to abserve a practice event where the only kites in flight are a part of the performance, I tend to enjoy it a great deal. A vital question to be considered in the stunt kite hobby is what has held this sport back in general? **************Lots of stuff, for one thing most contests are boring. Windsurfing has certainly been a more recent discovery and now has olympic recognition. Is windsurfing more of a sport than kitting? ****************i'm constantly using this example, we need to realize that we can make up the rules as we go along, and current events (while changing slowly) need to come to grips with what it takes to attract and hold an audiences attention. aoxomoxoa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 09:40:24 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? rlhaas@pylon.com (Robin Haas) writes: > [Questions about why competition events are on the decline] Some random thoughts: Do they attract the public? I think not. I've gone to a lot of festivals but I've never had the patience to sit down and watch an entire routine from beginning to end. I think that stunt flying has a place at public festivals for *demonstration*, but I think that much of it is boring and that it should be treated like buggying - it gets a demo slot to show off in front of the public, but the bulk of the competition should be at separate meetings. If I were to run a festival, I'd use the arena to show in succession (no particular order) Big kites Windbows Playsails Indian Fighters Altitude sprint Buggy demo Ballet Demo Rok battle Teddy drop Sweet drop Home-made demo Kiddy workshop demo Beer lifting competition 4-line demo Other ideas... Pick some members of the public to teach how to fly 2 line and 4-line in front of the audience. Live Kite Video Photography display Keep the long-winded competition to specialist events and give the public a taste of the full spectrum and entertainment of flying. Andrew -- Kite jumping is for morons. If you want to fly, get a hang-glider. Netiquette-of-the-day: Think twice before posting! You can FTP the kite FAQ's from ftp.hawaii.edu (directory /pub/rec/kites/faq) It is generally accepted that the ravings of Frank Kenisky should be ignored. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 12:23:03 -1000 From: girbo@aol.com (Girbo) Message-Id: <34at07$mh3@search01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? Sorry -I don't think I signed my last posting. and for some reason my real name doesn't appear in the header. Sherrie Arnold (girbo@aol.com) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 12:19:06 -1000 From: girbo@aol.com (Girbo) Message-Id: <34asoq$mf6@search01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? In article <3484nl$kds@earth.pylon.com>, rlhaas@pylon.com (Robin Haas) writes: >> This would then be split among the events >>belonging to the organization. If someone donated as a >>sponsor, they would be listed as a sponsor for every event >>belonging to the organization that season. They would then be >>free to make an individual donation to event(s) if they choose >>to give extra support to an event in their area, they had >>special interest in, etc. I believe the the East Coast League >>operates in a similar fashion. Can someone verify? As an organizer of one of the Eastern League (EL) events (Dave and I coordinate the Old Dominion Stunt Kite Championships in Virginia), I can verify that we don't quite work that way, although it is an idea we are trying to implement to a point. Several of the EL events are organized by Roger Chewning, and he is able to sell a package to sponsors for his events. The rest of the events are organized by other people which usually go after their own sponsorship dollars. However, we are trying to streamline the League somewhat so that sponsorship, public relations, and event organization is handled on a more League-wide basis. Each event faces the same problems and the same workload, so we are trying not to reinvent the wheel at each event. Robin's original posting also asked the question of why the number of events is decreasing in the West and not in the East. Mark Virgilio later pointed out that the East's success has much to do with Roger Chewning of Sky Festivals, which is true. Roger initially organized the League and helped most of our events get started. Since then, we have all made an effort to run quality events each year and do our best to give the competitor what he expects. At this time, EL consists of 11 events along the East Coast run during the months of February to November. Standings are maintained in most classes with awards at the end of the year, usually League jackets. Most events see about the same number of competitors (75 - 100). Most of us have formed great networks of friends from the folks we have met at the various events, makes them even more enjoyable. The circuit is not overwhelming with the number of events or the amount of travel required - a competitor's top five scores are counted for the standings. Most of the events do just break even with their budgets, but we all seem to be able to do it again each year. I think the fact that we have the League organization behind us to help and other event organizers to pitch in keeps us going. We also have a number of people within the League able to do most of the jobs required at a competition, be it judging, field staff, or running the operations. This spreads the load and keeps organizers from burning out. Stunt kite events are always evolving, and I think we are all making an effort to appeal to the public by giving the competitions more of a 'festival' atmosphere. Stunt kite competitions are sometimes difficult for the casual observer to understand; it's much more subjective than a windsurfing race or volleyball game where it's obvious who the winner is. This means we must educate the spectators and/or give them other things to watch, such as the activities listed in Andrew's posting. Sport kite competitions may never appeal to the masses, but it does give those of us who do compete great enjoyment. It is also the place where our best 'demo' flyers hone their skills and we find out just how good they are. Maybe we need to re-focus our expectations of public acceptance, and keep evolving. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 4 Sep 1994 06:35:28 -1000 From: rlhaas@pylon.com (Robin Haas) Message-Id: <34ct0g$gg1@earth.pylon.com> Organization: The Pipeline Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) wrote: > >rlhaas@pylon.com (Robin Haas) writes: >> [Questions about why competition events are on the >decline] > >Some random thoughts: > >Do they attract the public? I think not. I've gone to >a lot of festivals but I've never had the patience to >sit down and watch an entire routine from beginning to >end. Having just recently organized an stunt kite competition I can't entirely agree with this statement. Our competition was held in an out of the way place, not on the ocean or other tourist destination area, and it still attracted spectators >From 100+ miles. They came only to see the stunt kites fly. I agree that stunt kite competitions are not a HUGE draw for the public. Part of the reason for this is the public's lack of exposure to the sport. At WSIKF this year there was a full day (and part of another) dedicated to sport kite flying. There wasn't any heavy competition just fun games. There was kite racing using the CATS system and Mystery Ballet. The only reward were ribbons. No points, prizes or anything else. The rest of the day was spent putting on team, pairs, and solo stunt kite demos. The dunes and boardwalk were crowded with literally thousands of people the entire day. Stunt kite competitions are not a huge public draw but that should not diminish the importance of them. I think competitions help in keeping skills sharp and developing new techniques, tricks, etc. This helps improve performances when there are demos. > >I think that stunt flying has a place at public >festivals for *demonstration*, but I think that much >of it is boring and that it should be treated like >buggying - it gets a demo slot to show off in front of >the public, but the bulk of the competition should be >at separate meetings. If I were to run a festival, >I'd use the arena to show in succession (no particular >order) > >Big kites >Windbows >Playsails >Indian Fighters >Altitude sprint >Buggy demo >Ballet Demo >Rok battle >Teddy drop >Sweet drop >Home-made demo >Kiddy workshop demo >Beer lifting competition >4-line demo I can't disagree with this. This would make a great line up for a kite festival. The point should be made however that we are talking about stunt kite competitions and not necessarily kite festivals in general. The concern is that there has been a drop in the number of events, the numbers of flyers, and the number of sponsors on the West Coast while the sport seems to be thriving in other areas. What can be done to reverse this trend? There is no argument that competition does not appeal to all kite flyers. There seems to be a trend, however, that says that competition/organization/rules cannot equal fun. I think there would be many people that would disagree with this. Those that enjoy it should have an outlet to pursue that desire to excel. Some, and I think it's a very few, just need to be reminded that it's ONLY kites! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 4 Sep 1994 19:37:07 -1000 From: Thom Shanken Message-Id: Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? Robin Haas writes: >I can't disagree with this. This would make a great line up >for a kite festival. The point should be made however that we >are talking about stunt kite competitions and not necessarily >kite festivals in general. The concern is that there has been >a drop in the number of events, the numbers of flyers, and the >number of sponsors on the West Coast while the sport seems to >be thriving in other areas. What can be done to reverse this >trend? While I would in no way presume to speak for Andrew, perhaps his suggested events (not repeated in the above quote) ar, in fact, the very things needed to "improve" stunt/sport kite competitions. Any endeavor, competitive or otherwise, requires new blood. My personal feeling is that many kite competitions are extremely esoteric affairs, >From the uninitiated point of view. The "event speak" is a series of confusing acronyms: E.I.B., I.I.P., etc. which, combined with other factors only (hopefully, untentionally) serve to confuse those who might otherwise Thom :) (thomshanken@delphi.com) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 19:41:42 -1000 From: Robert Scribner Message-Id: Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Subject: Re: What's Happening to Stunt Kite Competitions? maybe we need a outsider to come in. some one to run our competitions like a business. let this person make money from us and the event. so we may pay more. i would not have a problem with it if the event went well and the competitors won a nice gift or money! we should not have kite shop owners or competition flyers running our competitions, due to their interest. this is not to slam past events, they were great! we may need to look at competition differently in the future to get the flyers to come b ack. nice to hear from you robin! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =